| BanannaGapNavy |
** DISCLAIMER ** Long winded post is following - please just SKIP OVER THIS POST if you have NEVER had an oil leak on a car.
So I have a 2003 Pilot. Just got it a little bit ago (a month)
Background:
motor has 17,000 miles. Changed oil @16,500 miles (day after I bought it) using synthetic oil. Rear main seal began to leak the NEXT DAY. 3-4 drops per day on garage floor. YES, its the rear main (confirmed by dealer with UV dye)
Problem/mystery:
After confirming rear main leak (coincidentally the day after switching to Synthetic oil!!!!) at the dealer, I go home and immediately change oil again using regular old Pennzoil 5-20. Three days later the leak is now all but gone. Just a very, very slight dampness under the sight port - which is beneath the rear seal. So I clean with brake cleaner and all is dry for a few days.
Gets damp again after another week. No drips, just that you can see a sheen of oil around the sight port (or whatever they call that 2"x3" cover down under between the torque conv. and the engine block)
Dilemma:
Do I have the dealer replace the rear main seal?
Why Not Do It?:
Because the leak is very minor. R&R-ing the seal requires tranny removal as well as tons of ancillary equipment. We all know that when things get removed and put back, stuff tends to not work quite right. Problems end up popping up later. Not my words, but the words of the Honda tech I was drinking beer with the other night. Also seemed to agree with the Honda tech at my dealer who said "shoot, we will certainly change the seal. Dont matter to us, we get paid for it. But if it were me, Id leave her alone and keep that synthetic crap away from her"
Why Do It?:
Id hate to NOT change the seal and then see it REALLY start leaking in a couple years - after the warranty is up! |
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| N_Jay |
One of the good properties of synthetic is its ability to flow better then conventional. (like adding a wetting agent to water).
Unfortunately this includes flowing where you don't want it to flow.
Ask anyone with an older split case (Porsche/VW) engined car who tried synthetic oil.
The hard part is knowing WHY your seal is leaking. Some seals leak at a constant rate their whole life. (some say the leaking oil keeps them lubed and cuts down on further wear, but that could be an "old mechanics tale")
Other leak as precursor to failure.
I would probably see how long the dealer will give you to address it. Go a few months or years and if it seems to get at all worse, have it fixed, but if it stays the same ignore it.
If it was manual I would be concerned about the clutch getting wet, but on an automatic that whole issue is mute. |
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| CHADC880 |
| Like mentioned in a few other post I have owned many honda's and a good bit of them had very high mileage which never has bothered my because its a honda. Some had rear seal oil leaks and one which I bought for my parents a 93 Accord Wagon, man this car baths in oil. We use to add a quart every 300 miles and this is no kidding. Why do I not get the engine re ringed and sealed. Well my parents only drive it 300 miles maybe every 3 months. Well anyways I use Valvoline Max motor oil. I started using this when I needed a SUV and Pilots weren't made yet. Grand Cherokee were born with rear main seal leaks and the Valvoline Max is some incredible stuff. It stops many leaks by using a special additive that actually makes seals get softer and back to there normal state. I know it states for vehicles over 75,000 miles and maybe your seal is leaking because of other issue's but it may be worth a try. :8: |
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| cwa107 |
JMO, but I'd have it fixed. To me, this is a defect in a vehicle with only 20K on the clock. If you were over 100K, that would be a different story, but this vehicle has a long life ahead of it.
Have it fixed while there's no cost to you. If you're not confident that the dealer you use is not competent to perform a repair of this magnitude, take it to someone else. At the very least, if the dealer fixes it and another problem surfaces related to it, a good dealer should stand by their work. |
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| prijo |
quote:
Originally posted by cwa107
JMO, but I'd have it fixed. To me, this is a defect in a vehicle with only 20K on the clock. If you were over 100K, that would be a different story, but this vehicle has a long life ahead of it.
Have it fixed while there's no cost to you. If you're not confident that the dealer you use is not competent to perform a repair of this magnitude, take it to someone else. At the very least, if the dealer fixes it and another problem surfaces related to it, a good dealer should stand by their work.
I would agree. When you tear apart and re-assemble, those new bolts that show up when the job is done may cause other problems down the road, but doing it now gets those other problems covered by warranty, instead of waiting and then hoping the dealer stands by their work! |
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| rocky |
A) Appreciate the Secret optional extra of built in underside rustproofing.
B) Synthetic and normal oils can coexist quite happily, Castrol Syntec is a mixed synthetic dino last I looked
C) if its leaking its going to go......I'd get it fixed under warranty. |
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| sblvro |
| :rolleyes: If it is leaking, have it fixed and have give you an extended warranty because of the defect of your car. |
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| BanannaGapNavy |
So the leak was (!) gone 100% after 2 weeks on dinosaur oil.
Ive been debating getting the seal replaced.. but since it stopped leaking 100%, the dealer didnt want to replace it. Big surprise.
So I went ahead and changed the oil out again.... to synthetic. I used Mobil 1, normal kind.... not the extended drain variety.
Would you freakin believe it started leaking the very next day! After two dry weeks on cheap old Pennzoil 5-20.
So Im taking it in to get the seal replaced. All I gotta say is the dealer better NOT say its due to insufficient oil changes! I have 20k miles on this 2003! Hell, Ive changed the oil 4 times in the last two months alone.
*** so, what are my odds of developing power steering leaks, tranny problems, and 100 other problems? Pretty good im guessing since they have to pull the tranny and 100 other things to get to the seal.
Lovely.
And to think I have a 1998 Isuzu Trooper with a quarter million miles on it...... no leaks of any sort, any kind. Nada, zilch, nothing. I guess Im not surprised that Honda bought them to sell as Acura SLX sport utilities.
Anyone wanna buy a 2003 Pilot, low, low miles? |
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| CHADC880 |
Oh come on. Like you never cooked a steak wrong or screwed a hamburger up or had your kids call you the worse parent because of a mistake they or you made. Well guess what not every single honda out there will never have issue's
I mean you really want to compare your Isuzu to a Honda.
Thats like comparing Sadam to Bush.
Hell Isuzu can't even make its mind up on what it wants to be. A geo ?? A chevy ??? A Honda ??? Heck not even a trooper is all Isuzu. I mean look at the pre and early 90's when they stuck the GM 2.8V-6 so they could say they had a V-6 or how about when many peoples transmissions went bad because of a faulty thermostat not allowing the engine temp to go to normal causing the overdrive not to work resulting in many people's trannys fried.
Look,
So you have a rear main seal issue. If the dealer screws up when replacing it then milk them for all you can. Simple!!!!!
When most and I say most Honda dealers have severe issue's warranty that need repair they most of the time will have there most experienced Honda tech on it so they (and yes I know this sounds really $*$#)%T#$T) can save time since he knows all the shortcuts and how to take apart and put together the right way in a very nice timely manner.
:eek: |
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| cwa107 |
Why don't you take it to another dealer that you have a little more faith in? Clearly these guys have proven their incompetence in some form or another. A rear main seal is a major repair, no doubt, but certainly something a mom and pop shop or a decent dealer is capable of doing without causing other problems.
Interesting you should mention Honda's relationship with Isuzu. I'm pretty sure that did nothing to help Honda's image - in fact, quite the opposite from the horror stories I've heard.
There's a reason Isuzu is gradually pulling out of this market entirely and no longer sells any of their own product - and it ain't because they've been producing great cars. |
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| BanannaGapNavy |
Isuzu is owned by GM. So GM has been shrinking their paasenger car/truck market in the US.
Isuzu has always been a truck builder. :
-Currently builds the #1 selling delivery truck in the entire world.
-Currently is doing all of GM's diesel engineering. GM's "duramax"..isuzu Engine. |
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| Daryl Baines |
BanannaGapNavy,
Have you thought about Auto-Rx I have a Dodge Caravan with a 3.3 engine with 185,000 miles on it that had a seal leak I used Auto-Rx to clean and rinse the engine.
I have been using this product for three years the leak has been stopped for over a year. I also use 3oz of Auto-Rx at each oil change I have pictures of my valves but I don't know if I can post them on this web site good luck with your leak you also can get more info on thier web site Auto-Rx.com. |
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| BanannaGapNavy |
| I actually used Auto RX on my old Volvo. Shoulda left her alone! The auto RX did seem to work on the valve noise. Acutally quieted it down very, very well. But that motor sprung leaks out of every possible orifice. Rear main, valve covers, camshaft, oil pan. I know ARX would have fixed the leaks eventually, but the rear main oiled the clutch up into oblivion. Ended up putting a new clutch plate in it, then using 5 bottles of stop-leak to end the madness. Sold it shortly after. |
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| cwa107 |
But again... why would you use such a product on a vehicle that's at the beginning of its life - not to mention under warranty! Products like AutoRX work by gumming up leaks. In turn, they stick to all the major engine components. They are designed as a stop-gap measure and not a permanent fix. You use this kind of crap when you're trying to eek out another 5K out of an engine that's on death's door. Using it on a vehicle at this stage of its life is just bad karma!
BanannaGapNavy, if I were in your shoes, I'd ask your friends and family and see which Honda dealer in your area has the best rep. I'd look on BBB online and see which one has a clean track record. Then, I'd take my Honda there and get it fixed.
People seem to think that vehicles are entirely assembled by robots in factory clean rooms by infallible robots - this is just not so, people are still very much involved in the assembly of vehicles. That said, your vehicle wasn't the product of immaculate conception. There's no reason to believe that a dealer working on it will make it any less than pristine or more prone to problems. |
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| BanannaGapNavy |
a 22,000 mile honda shouldnt need a darn thing to be leak free and clean inside. Hell, even if hadnt changed the oil ever, it should still be fine.
We (company I work for) rented a new Malibu from hertx or someplce. We had it for one year. Put 27,000 miles on it. Never had any service done on it. Rental company didnt give a crap if we even changed the oil. Yes, we even called to ask. they said, nah, dont worry about it... we'll sell it when it comes back to us.
Anyways.. after 27,000 miles, and never even checking (!) the oil.... it was still running just fine, no leaks. When we got ready to turn it in to the agency, I check the oil. Didnt really look too bad!
This car was driven every day, all day. Stopped and put into park every 1/4 mile. Yes, that lots of gear changes. When we turned it in, the brake pads were squealing bad, and the tranny shifted like it had 400,000 miles. CLUNK!
but the motor was just fine.
anyways, thought that was a fun little side tidbit.
Oh, and dont buy any Malibu's from a rental car company! |
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| cwa107 |
quote:
Originally posted by BanannaGapNavy
~SNIP~
Oh, and dont buy any Malibu's from a rental car company!
LOL! :jester:
That either says a lot about the reliability of a Chevy Malibu or a lot about the effectiveness and stability of modern oil.
Interesting tidbit. |
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| CHADC880 |
Well after reading enough of the bashing on one person owner a pilot who has a rear main leak can I just say PLEASE JUST GO GET IT FIXED. It would be much better to actually hear something positive comming from you instead of other. Also just because your Pilot has 22,000 miles doesn't mean the previous owner didn't dog the living crap out of it and you didn't buy it new so please just go get the thing fixed.
And also one last thing about your trooper see your one in a rare few that hasn't had any issue's with there trooper. I am sure if you found a website for the trooper as for the pilot we could find several people with issue's.
SH$*($T happens. |
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| BanannaGapNavy |
its at the shop right now... The mechanic I talked to worked for Acura perviously. He said he "did them all the time" on the 01-03 MDX's. Now he said he does a "good number" of them on 01-03 oddysys.
Said that the seal is replaced often when the tranny's are swapped out (happens a bunch on the minivans) since you dont really see a seepage, until it becomes enough to puddle out of the case. something like that.
Im certainly no Honda basher. Ive owned a 1981 Accord, a 1983 Prelude, a 1990 accord, a 2000 Acura Legend, and a 2003 CR-V, now the pilot.
The Pilot is certainly the nicest of the cars, but the Prelude and the CR-V were absolutely 100% perfect in terms of mechanical durability and so forth. Never a problem.
The CR-V was awesome. Never a hickup. |
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| cwa107 |
quote:
Originally posted by BanannaGapNavy
its at the shop right now... The mechanic I talked to worked for Acura perviously. He said he "did them all the time" on the 01-03 MDX's. Now he said he does a "good number" of them on 01-03 oddysys.
Said that the seal is replaced often when the tranny's are swapped out (happens a bunch on the minivans) since you dont really see a seepage, until it becomes enough to puddle out of the case. something like that.
SNIP.
Cool... be sure to let us know how you make out. It looks like you've found a shop that's done it a time or two, so hopefully it won't be a big deal. |
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| Sportymonk |
quote:
Originally posted by BanannaGapNavy
... and the tranny shifted like it had 400,000 miles. CLUNK!
.... Oh, and dont buy any Malibu's from a rental car company!
My wife has an 00 Malibu, only car I have ever seeen with no tranmission dip stick to check the fluid level. In fact there is no way the owner can check it except to go under the car and remvoe a bolt and put your finger in. :eek:
I wouldn't buy a Malibu from anybody. |
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| pjb3 |
quote:
Originally posted by cwa107
But again... why would you use such a product on a vehicle that's at the beginning of its life - not to mention under warranty! Products like AutoRX work by gumming up leaks. In turn, they stick to all the major engine components. They are designed as a stop-gap measure and not a permanent fix. You use this kind of crap when you're trying to eek out another 5K out of an engine that's on death's door. Using it on a vehicle at this stage of its life is just bad karma!
You might want to do a little research and find out what AutoRX does. I have never used it but those that have usually swear by it and your assumptions about how it works and what it does are completely wrong. |
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| cwa107 |
quote:
Originally posted by pjb3
You might want to do a little research and find out what AutoRX does. I have never used it but those that have usually swear by it and your assumptions about how it works and what it does are completely wrong.
LOL! I have this sweet bridge in New York that I'd love to sell ya. |
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| pjb3 |
quote:
Originally posted by cwa107
LOL! I have this sweet bridge in New York that I'd love to sell ya.
You seem to have missed my point. If you had bothered to do any research to find out what AutoRx does, you would have found that it is designed to clean engines and remove deposits in a slow and gentle manner so that they are trapped in the oil filter. One of the side effect is that it cleans the seals as well and that may help them, but they do not promote it for that purpose. Your statement "Products like AutoRX work by gumming up leaks. In turn, they stick to all the major engine components. They are designed as a stop-gap measure and not a permanent fix. You use this kind of crap when you're trying to eek out another 5K out of an engine that's on death's door" is the exact opposite of what AutoRx is designed for. Once again, just so you don't miss it this time, AutoRx is a cleaner not a "Stop Leak" type product. As I said I have not tried it but I have heard good results from people I trust. As I suggested, it might be a good idea if you actually knew what a product was before commenting on it.
Also, thank you for the offer on the bridge but I think I'll pass. I have a feeling it has a good home with you. |
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| cwa107 |
quote:
Originally posted by pjb3
You seem to have missed my point. If you had bothered to do any research to find out what AutoRx does, you would have found that it is designed to clean engines and remove deposits in a slow and gentle manner so that they are trapped in the oil filter. One of the side effect is that it cleans the seals as well and that may help them, but they do not promote it for that purpose. Your statement "Products like AutoRX work by gumming up leaks. In turn, they stick to all the major engine components. They are designed as a stop-gap measure and not a permanent fix. You use this kind of crap when you're trying to eek out another 5K out of an engine that's on death's door" is the exact opposite of what AutoRx is designed for. Once again, just so you don't miss it this time, AutoRx is a cleaner not a "Stop Leak" type product. As I said I have not tried it but I have heard good results from people I trust. As I suggested, it might be a good idea if you actually knew what a product was before commenting on it.
Also, thank you for the offer on the bridge but I think I'll pass. I have a feeling it has a good home with you.
Please explain how a cleaner stops a leak. |
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| CHADC880 |
The only two items on the market that I have ever seen stop a "leak" without gumming up the engine is Slick 50 and Valvoline Max. They use a special additive that softens the seals and lets them expand back to there normal size. Most seals valve stem seals, rear mains, valve cover gaskets and so fourth leak because they get as hard as a rock in time and shrink allowing oil to well "leak".
I read the RX stuff on the website and wonder myself. I once owed a Scoobydoo "subaru" XT-TURBO which they were common for head gaskets to blow on them. So I bought some Block Sealer/Head Gasket Leak Fix.
Let me say this it amazes me how no ones radiator never stop shut. All that stuff does is finds a way out and the crap thats in it cloggs the leak and whatever else small passages it can find. I wish I took a picture of the thermostat. It looked like it grew hairy fugess attack of the crap stuff awful build up of yellow hard yucky stuff. Sorry trying to describe it. Oh yeah the head gasket leak stopped for a week but so did everything else. :eek: :eek: |
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| pjb3 |
quote:
Originally posted by cwa107
Please explain how a cleaner stops a leak.
They don't promote Auto Rx for stopping leaks, but one of the side effects seems to be that in some cases it inceases the pliability of hardened seals and they make it clear that this is temporary. I would guess that under certain conditions, such as sludge or gunk inhibiting the flow of oil past a gasket, by cleaning the gunk you would increase leaks. |
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| cwa107 |
quote:
Originally posted by pjb3
They don't promote Auto Rx for stopping leaks, but one of the side effects seems to be that in some cases it inceases the pliability of hardened seals and they make it clear that this is temporary. I would guess that under certain conditions, such as sludge or gunk inhibiting the flow of oil past a gasket, by cleaning the gunk you would increase leaks.
Right, but you made the assumption based on your previous experience with the product that it might work - just as I made the assumption that it was similiar to other stop leak products because you recommended it as a stop a leak. I've since read the website, and it looks like a wonderful product - but in my experience, if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
My friend, I meant absolutely no offense to you, I just wanted to make the point that in an engine this young, especially under warranty, I'd hate to put a chemical product in to fix what seems like a physical defect. I've seen so many products like this come and go over the years, based on their promotional materials, it looks just like every other miracle engine treatment. |
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| jay |
quote:
Originally posted by cwa107
Right, but you made the assumption based on your previous experience with the product that it might work - just as I made the assumption that it was similiar to other stop leak products because you recommended it as a stop a leak. I've since read the website, and it looks like a wonderful product - but in my experience, if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
My friend, I meant absolutely no offense to you, I just wanted to make the point that in an engine this young, especially under warranty, I'd hate to put a chemical product in to fix what seems like a physical defect. I've seen so many products like this come and go over the years, based on their promotional materials, it looks just like every other miracle engine treatment.
Besides, you don't need an engine treatment, you need a better automatic transmission fluid.;)
:p |
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| cwa107 |
quote:
Originally posted by jay
Besides, you don't need an engine treatment, you need a better automatic transmission fluid.;)
:p
Well, bad transmissions are apparently what you get when you don't use top tier gas.:rolleyes: |
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| pjb3 |
quote:
Originally posted by cwa107
Right, but you made the assumption based on your previous experience with the product that it might work - just as I made the assumption that it was similiar to other stop leak products because you recommended it as a stop a leak. I've since read the website, and it looks like a wonderful product - but in my experience, if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
My friend, I meant absolutely no offense to you, I just wanted to make the point that in an engine this young, especially under warranty, I'd hate to put a chemical product in to fix what seems like a physical defect. I've seen so many products like this come and go over the years, based on their promotional materials, it looks just like every other miracle engine treatment.
I agree. I believe the original question was if it was worth replacing a rear main that only leaked with synthetic oil but was fine with dino. Just using dino would have solved the leak problem but I think the bigger question was "for how long?". His decision to have the seal replaced under warranty was the same one I would have made. As you pointed out it doesn't make sense to put a band-aid on a problem rather than fixing it.
I believe you have me confused with another poster, I was not trying to promote Auto RX and I never suggested it. I simply responded to the suggestion it would gunk up an engine.
Like you, I believe that most additives are a waste of money and in some cases are detrimental (I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth). However, there does seem to be a small group of products that perform as claimed, the key is finding which ones those are.
I understand your reluctance to take a companies website at face value since I feel the same way. Most of my information comes from the website Bobistheoilguy.com were they discuss the method by which it works and the results. Do a search for it on that site and you will find unbiased discussions, the vast majority positive. My feeling is that with regular oil changes AutoRx shouldn't be needed, but if you buy a used vehicle and are unsure of it's history it might be something to consider.
Now back to the original discussion, which I believe is over, since the decision to replace the seal has been made. |
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| BanannaGapNavy |
its on its 3rd day at the shop. Essentially 6 days because this dealer is huge and runs two shifts for mechanics.
Rear main was replaced initally, then the real work began.... fixing all the other misc. leaks. A laundry list of gaskets, o-rings, etc. Every thing they open up has shown signs of recent leakage. Valve covers, oil pan, cam seals (4 of them) The oil pan was the one that really stumped them. Its not even a gasket, but more of a caulk-like system.
They (I too) am even more convinced I got a bad batch of oil. Maybe contaminated with some type of penetrant, like wd-40. heck , I dont know.
If the cant locate which valve stem quide-seals to replace, they actually might just do a new motor. Its becoming quite "the sight to see" at the shop. Everyone stands around in disbelief. Like a train wreck.
Heck, even the oil filter gasket felt weird to them. Like silly-putty or something. Putty-like, but still rubbery too.
I just pray they dont try and blame me, saying I put some weird chemical in (which I did not do ) to cause this wreckage. |
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| BanannaGapNavy |
good Lord, my Pilot must have been built on Monday morning after a holiday weekend (filled with beer-guzzling parties)
So the list of what was fixed:
(bear in mind a 20,000 mile pilot)
1. Rear air vent broken
2. Rear main seal replaced (was installed slightly crooked)
3. Valve cover gaskets
4. Coolant leak at the "crossover pipe" whatever that is.
5. Power steering belt was defective or mis-installed (not centered), showed signs of running on the edge of pulley for a long time.
6. Front passenger strut was nearly finger-tight. Explains the thumps I guess)
8. And a partridge in a pear tree.
All my previous Hondas (including my 03 CR-V) had been Japanese-built. And they all have been night-and-day different experiences from this Canadian Pilot. I dont know, maybe I just need to drive a Chevy for while to de-sensitize my brain to all its fault-finding. |
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| pjb3 |
quote:
Originally posted by BanannaGapNavy
They (I too) am even more convinced I got a bad batch of oil. Maybe contaminated with some type of penetrant, like wd-40. heck , I dont know.
Heck, even the oil filter gasket felt weird to them. Like silly-putty or something. Putty-like, but still rubbery too.
I just pray they dont try and blame me, saying I put some weird chemical in (which I did not do ) to cause this wreckage.
It is highly unlikely you "got a bad batch of oil". It would be far more likely that the previous owner tried some miracle additive than the oil itself was a problem.
I guess what I find curious is the statement "even the oil filter gasket felt weird". I would have thought that in your multiple oil changes between syn and dino you would have changed the filter at least once. If that is true, than any "bad oil" or additive would have been removed and what would affect the new oil filter gasket? |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by BanannaGapNavy
. . . . . .
Heck, even the oil filter gasket felt weird to them. Like silly-putty or something. Putty-like, but still rubbery too.
. . .
BAD DEALER ALERT!!!!
The oil pan gasket IS an adhesive type, not a sheet type.
They either did not know, or were just using the "Look at this" system of getting you to accept whatever they said.
Stuff like this PISSES me off!!! |
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| BanannaGapNavy |
The oil pan leak was the weirdest one they thought. Unlike the others (which were rubber leaks) the oil pan gasket material is a caulk-like system. Maybe I forgot to metion that they did in fact explain that too me.
I picked the car up, no charges at all. I was pretty happy to just get it back, and not have to defend myself against any "you didnt maintain your oil correctly" baloney I have heard happens to Toyota owners who have problems with sludge for instance (a much talked about Toyota issue)
The oil pan gasket material was squirted in from a small aerosol dispenser, kinda like Cheez-wiz. Its definitely not a typical paper, metal or rubber gasket that im used to seeing. |
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| BanannaGapNavy |
quote:
Originally posted by pjb3
I guess what I find curious is the statement "even the oil filter gasket felt weird". I would have thought that in your multiple oil changes between syn and dino you would have changed the filter at least once. t?
I neglected to mention this: Doing all these oil changes, I used the same filter. I figured that it only held, what, maybe 1/8 quart? So I left it on. I mean heck, I did like 4 changes in 4 weeks. Didnt figure on collecting any garbage in the filter.
The filter was a Purolator. Pure one, or something. Blue color. At any rate, it stayed on through all the oil changes. |
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