| ducatiduke |
I have a 03 Pilot an in December, my 4-year lease is up. I like the car, it is in great condition and actually considering purchasing it after the lease. Here I my dilemma - I recently changed out my tranny fluid because the shifting was acting different. It would not coast well… It almost seemed like it was hanging or bogged down. I was at 33k and 3.5 years. The manual states 30k or 24 months. The good news it seems like it is shifting much better since I did this (yes, I did use ATF Z1). The not so good news is the tranny fluid was a not in the greatest condition. Then again, maybe it was good seeing I have not ever done this before. I am not positive what burnt tranny fluid smells like, but it did have a different odor compared to the new fluid and it as definitely much darker red. In addition, on the drain plug did have some grey/silver metal particles on it. Not a ton, but they were there. Comparing it to the VTM-4 fluid I changed last week, which was super clean, with no smell, I am a bit concerned. I think I am going to change it again in a few weeks to see what it looks like… I bought a case of ATF ZI and might go somewhere and have it flush completely seeing I am concerned with it.
In any event, I wonder if I caused any damage seeing there was a small amount of particles on the magnetic drain plug?
Or is this normal?
Was I super late on this seeing it said 24 month or 30k miles?
Should I go in a have someone do a complete flush?
Should I walk away from this car in December because I might have issues with the tranny? |
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| jcantanixon |
| There is probably nothing wrong with the tranny. Burnt fluid smells REALLY bad. Personally, I would still walk away. The 03's had some tranny issues, and the 06's have quite a few improvements. In Dec, the 07s will be out. :cool: |
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| rocky |
quote:
Originally posted by jcantanixon
There is probably nothing wrong with the tranny. Burnt fluid smells REALLY bad. Personally, I would still walk away. The 03's had some tranny issues, and the 06's have quite a few improvements. In Dec, the 07s will be out. :cool:
Good advice. |
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| andyschneider |
From my expereince with several Hondas and other cars with auto trannys - the Hondas are much more "picky" about change intervals than other cars (like GM, ford, et al). If you wait too long, you get odd shifting. You saw that after a drain and refill that things got better. But don't do a flush - at next oil change, drain the tranny fluid again. You'll get more of the old stuff out of the converter this way, and get more new fluid mixture in.
The amount of shavings you saw on the drain plug wasn't abnormal - our 93 Legend had that amount at 25k miles when I drained that fluid, and even that car had better shifting after the change. Our '04 Pilot was the same at 25k.
If it were me I wouldn't let the tranny situation steer me away from the vehicle. On the other hand, make sure the buy-out price is decent, compared to other pilots of the same era, to decide what to do. We have considered buying our '04 Pilot when the 3 year lease gets up next summer, but the buy-out is about $20k ('04 EX-L/RES with about 40k at end of lease, estimated). If I look at an '03 with that appx mileage and same features, $20k is just about the private party KBB value, so it'd be close - but you have to be sure that's what you want to do. Typically I lease my cars with $0 capital cost reduction for as low montly payment as I can for 3 yrs or less, so I just walk at the end and do it again. I always have a monthly payment, but never any out-of-warranty issues - just works for us. The '04 was 3 yrs, and the '06 is 42 months - the '04 had $0 cap cost red, the '06 had $300 cap cost reduction.
andy |
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| ducatiduke |
Good god!!!!!! I changed the tranny fluid and it was working fine for a day and then it started doing this “bucking” or “skipping” thing that I have been reading about on this site all over the place…. Uggggggggg…. It only happens when I have it in D and not in 3rd gear, so it really seems like it is a tranny issue…
Here now is my dilemma… What should I do? 1) Trade it in for a different car (I am getting calls from the dealer to trade it in for a new car early – supposedly there it is a sought after car. They said in one conversation, that they would pay off the remaining lease and make it worth my while)… 2) Go in and work with the dealer and see what I can figure out. It is at 34k miles and my thought would be they would work with me, but you never know… 3) See if I can purchase it and pick up and extended warranty and turn around and have them replace the tranny with the warranty (not my idea, someone at work suggested this and I am not too wild about this because it is not what you call honest)… 4) Drive around in 3rd gear for the next few months and walk away from it or 5) Ignore it and see what happens.
The sh*tty thing is, this is a great car EX-L RES and is in really good condition, with low miles… I was planning on purchasing at the end of the lease, but now I am not sure what I want to do. If I could get this tranny issue fixed (for free because these trannys are bad) I probably do so.
What does everyone think? |
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| Sunday Rider |
I change the tranny fluid every other oil change (started this last year). The fluid always looks brown compared to the newer fluid.
Try changing it again since you bought a case.
You have to consider that you have paid a lot of depreciation on the old Pilot, and you would start again on the new one.
Go talk to the dealer and see how much the new one will cost you. Come back and post here and someone will gave you an opinion(s), no shortage of that here.
You have to also consider that if you keep it and go the extended warranty method, you have to take into account that cost vs the new one.
I have 124,000 km (75,000 miles), and the tranny has been fine. But I think that these trannies are hit and miss. I am not sure but I would say there has been less than a dozen problems with trannies for posters, since I have been around. |
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| robrecht |
quote:
Originally posted by ducatiduke
3) See if I can purchase it and pick up and extended warranty and turn around and have them replace the tranny with the warranty (not my idea, someone at work suggested this and I am not too wild about this because it is not what you call honest)…
I don't see anything dishonest about this approach. Honda offers a warranty on their product and charges you more when yor car has more miles on it. It's just a consumer decision for you without a moral component. If Honda had sold you the car, rather than lease it, they might feel a moral obligation to offer you an extended warranty for free for selling you a possibly defective car. If you don't buy the car, they also have a moral obligation to not sell the car to anyone else until they are reasonably sure it's fixed.
That said, I wouldn't follow this approach because I wouldn't want to deal with the hassle of planning for a tranny replacement. One advantage of a lease, is that you can walk away from a car that has problems. You'd paid extra for that option, I'd take advantage of it at this point. Plus, I'd also like to have the side curtain airbags and stability control of an '06, which should be fairly well discounted pretty soon--of course, you'd have to put up with the uglier grill! |
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| ducatiduke |
| Ok for sh*ts and giggles I just changed the tranny fluid again this morning... The fluid came out a little less dark than the first time, but nowhere close to the color of new fluid. Maybe it will fix everything… Yea right! (The terrible this is I am getting really good at doing this with the my 1-quart pump and long filler hose, etc). I will let everyone know. Thanks again for everyone’s help and advise. |
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| archie |
| Are you within warranty? I thought I read 34K miles. I can't tell if you are over 36 months. Maybe the dealer will fix it free if just recently out of warranty. The dealer if they are decent should recognize that routine service ATF change is 45K miles, severe at 30K so your atf change is not late. And that Honda has a history of serious trans problems. Be polite and firm about your disappointment about the trans failure and that you bought Honda for reliability (that you did not get). Search other posts how they got the manufacturer to pay for trans failures just after the warranty expired. |
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| ducatiduke |
yep at 34k and change for milage...
UPDATE!!!!!!!!
The tranny fluid change out this morning seems to be working well... My first trip did not have any "bucking"... I am at a meeting now and will post an update of my trip home with more details. (Got to love laptops + wireless) esp. on boring Saturday meetings... |
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| Sunday Rider |
One more thing to consider is the EGR valve. It seems to have similar symptoms to what you are describing. But I think it has to throw out an error code before they do the TSB repair on it. Not sure if you searched that here yet.
Just in case your meeting is still boring you. |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by ducatiduke
Ok for sh*ts and giggles I just changed the tranny fluid again this morning... The fluid came out a little less dark than the first time, but nowhere close to the color of new fluid. Maybe it will fix everything… Yea right! (The terrible this is I am getting really good at doing this with the my 1-quart pump and long filler hose, etc). I will let everyone know. Thanks again for everyone’s help and advise.
You are supposed to do a "Triple change" of the ATF if it is thought to be bad. |
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| rocky |
quote:
Originally posted by N_Jay
You are supposed to do a "Triple change" of the ATF if it is thought to be bad.
A tranny fluid change usually drains at most one third of the total fluid inside the box |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by rocky
A tranny fluid change usually drains at most one third of the total fluid inside the box
Generally true. My point was the according the the service manual you should change the fluid three times (some read it as four times) when you suspect bad or contaminated fluid. |
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| jay |
quote:
Originally posted by N_Jay
Generally true. My point was the according the the service manual you should change the fluid three times (some read it as four times) when you suspect bad or contaminated fluid.
Here's what the Owner's Manual says. |
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| ducatiduke |
Ugggg!!! This meeting is going on and on and on..... Good god! This is a Saturday!
I will check out the EGR valve also...
Thanks!
~A |
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| robrecht |
quote:
Originally posted by ducatiduke
Ugggg!!! This meeting is going on and on and on..... Good god! This is a Saturday!
I will check out the EGR valve also...
Thanks!
~A
4+ hour meeting on a Saturday! What kind of work do you do? |
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| Sunday Rider |
quote:
Originally posted by robrecht
4+ hour meeting on a Saturday! What kind of work do you do?
Workaholic counsellor, time management.:2:
Sorry couldn't resist |
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| ducatiduke |
Playboy photographer! Jk... I manage a 24/7/365 tech center...
I am thinking it might be the EGR valve. The tranny is buttery smooth now... When driving at 50mph and back off the gas (coast) the tach dips down to say 1200 rpms... (Like when you approach a stale red light) When I gently press the accelerator, it eases back to a low gear and away you go with no bucking. What it seems to be doing now is at a steady 60 mph I do sense, albeit much less, a slight buck now and then... That sounds more like the EGR issue... I will keep you posted. I am going to read up on this and see if I can pull it and see if it is bad. If so, I will march, actually drive, down to the dealer and have them look at it with my TSB in hand to see if they do it for free. That worked last time on my transistor assembly... |
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| jim19428 |
Brand new to the forum...
My 03 Pilot is at the honda dealer right now because the D was blinking as I was going down the highway.
The dealer called me and told me the computer coded a bad 4th pressure switch. He recommended clearing the code and seeing if it will return. The next step would be a $260 repair.
If that didn't work, the problem would be internal which I would assume mean big bucks.
Does this seem like a logical course of action here? I just found out through this site that the model seems to have transmission problems. IS the ERG and this switch the same thing? IS the practice of a good faith repair something that Honda has been willing to do for a car that has 129,000 miles on it? Please help!!! |
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| drakebullet |
quote:
Originally posted by jim19428
Brand new to the forum...
My 03 Pilot is at the honda dealer right now because the D was blinking as I was going down the highway.
The dealer called me and told me the computer coded a bad 4th pressure switch. He recommended clearing the code and seeing if it will return. The next step would be a $260 repair.
If that didn't work, the problem would be internal which I would assume mean big bucks.
Does this seem like a logical course of action here? I just found out through this site that the model seems to have transmission problems. IS the ERG and this switch the same thing? IS the practice of a good faith repair something that Honda has been willing to do for a car that has 129,000 miles on it? Please help!!!
Yours is the 3rd message I've seen on a blinking "D" today. The blink happened to me while driving home from vacation on 5 August 2006. Dealer (South Bay Honda - Los Gatos, CA) quoted $367.50 to replace 4th pressure switch. 2003 Pilot has 67K miles. No option to reset and wait.
I opened a "case" with American Honda and requested they pay for it. Tomorrow, I'm going to change that to replacing the entire tranny on good faith due to the HIGH number of tranny issues posted for the 2003.
I'll keep this forum posted. |
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| jl_ss |
quote:
Originally posted by drakebullet
Yours is the 3rd message I've seen on a blinking "D" today. The blink happened to me while driving home from vacation on 5 August 2006. Dealer (South Bay Honda - Los Gatos, CA) quoted $367.50 to replace 4th pressure switch. 2003 Pilot has 67K miles. No option to reset and wait.
I opened a "case" with American Honda and requested they pay for it. Tomorrow, I'm going to change that to replacing the entire tranny on good faith due to the HIGH number of tranny issues posted for the 2003.
I'll keep this forum posted.
There are actually very few tranny issues with the Pilot. I would push for them to pay for the switch but they will not give you a new tranny if the switch solves the problem. Even if they did give you a new tranny it would be a rebuilt 2003 tranny. |
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| drakebullet |
quote:
Originally posted by jl_ss
There are actually very few tranny issues with the Pilot. I would push for them to pay for the switch but they will not give you a new tranny if the switch solves the problem. Even if they did give you a new tranny it would be a rebuilt 2003 tranny.
Thanks jl_ss, but how do you know there are very few issues? Between hondasuv.com, hondapilot.org, and alt.autos.honda (google) I found 8 instances of transmisson replacements on 2003 pilots. Many posters also mention that the 2003 are known for transmission problems. |
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| jl_ss |
quote:
Originally posted by drakebullet
Thanks jl_ss, but how do you know there are very few issues? Between hondasuv.com, hondapilot.org, and alt.autos.honda (google) I found 8 instances of transmisson replacements on 2003 pilots. Many posters also mention that the 2003 are known for transmission problems.
There are very few instances of tranny problems posted here as evidenced by the 8 you found over 3 sites. Honda sold 107,000 Pilots in 2003. People who have problems seek out internet sites to solve them so I would be surprised if there were significantly more unposted failures of 2003 trannies. 8 of 107,000 is a tiny percentage and by no means a reputation for being problematic. There are far more EGR failures that most mistake for tranny problems until they are correctly diagnosed. 2003's really have no reputation for being problematic on this site. There was a recall for the oil jet kit install but still no real significant quantity of failures attributed to the problem it addressed. The Pilot is the only V6 Honda/Acura vehicle that did not suffer from significant tranny failures. You want to see failures, check the MDX site - lots of failures for the 2001/2002 model years.
I've frequented the Pilot/MDX sites since 2002 and have been around for a lot of the history. I watched the issue very closely as I waited to see if our 2003 MDX tranny would be a problem. Then to make sure there was no issue with the Pilots before purchasing our 2005 pilot. |
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| drakebullet |
quote:
Originally posted by jl_ss
There are very few instances of tranny problems posted here as evidenced by the 8 you found over 3 sites. Honda sold 107,000 Pilots in 2003. People who have problems seek out internet sites to solve them so I would be surprised if there were significantly more unposted failures of 2003 trannies. 8 of 107,000 is a tiny percentage and by no means a reputation for being problematic. There are far more EGR failures that most mistake for tranny problems until they are correctly diagnosed. 2003's really have no reputation for being problematic on this site. There was a recall for the oil jet kit install but still no real significant quantity of failures attributed to the problem it addressed. The Pilot is the only V6 Honda/Acura vehicle that did not suffer from significant tranny failures.
Thanks for the thorough reply. Your post jives with the reports from the service managers at my purchase (Stewart Honda, Santa Maria, CA) and servicing (South Bay Honda, Los Gatos, CA) dealers. I raised these issues to shed light on the severity and breadth of 2003 tranny problems and to figure out if I should keep or dump the Pilot. I'm keeping.
American Honda is covering the tranny part and South Bay Honda is quoting labor at warranty rates (cheaper). In addition, American Honda is covering parts and labor on the failed rear blower transistor assembly - TSB 03-048.
I'm satisfied with our 2003 Pilot and impressed with Honda. This is Honda #2 for us. We also have a 2004 Acura TL (#3) and previously an Accord. |
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| dgipalo |
quote:
Originally posted by ducatiduke
Was I super late on this seeing it said 24 month or 30k miles?
Should I go in a have someone do a complete flush?
Should I walk away from this car in December because I might have issues with the tranny?
Only if your driving condition qualify under 'severe service' Otherwise, the interval is 45K miles, not time given.
Which is likely to be a bit long. I just changed the fluid in my 03 at ~37K, in the process adding an after-market cooler. On my car, the plug was a bit 'fuzzy', but the fluid seemed clean enough.
As to the rest of your dilemma - What's the residual on the car? If you like it, and the residual makes the car a good used buy, go for it. If you have the new car bug, or the residual is above market for the comparable used units, then a new one may be a better deal. |
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| jim19428 |
Yes people do use the internet to seek out problems, but I hardly believe that there were only 8 failures with 107,000. Only Honda knows the exact number.
It appears that Honda has been proactive in fixing any failures, which is great. But I don't think that they would be so proactive if the incidents were so isolated. Our service manager encouraged us to call Honda about this. They are aware that they have a problem with some transmissions. |
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| jl_ss |
quote:
Originally posted by jim19428
Yes people do use the internet to seek out problems, but I hardly believe that there were only 8 failures with 107,000. Only Honda knows the exact number.
It appears that Honda has been proactive in fixing any failures, which is great. But I don't think that they would be so proactive if the incidents were so isolated. Our service manager encouraged us to call Honda about this. They are aware that they have a problem with some transmissions.
I agree there are probably more than 8 failures. CR lists the 2003 Pilot tranny with a good relibility rating (clear dot). That means a problem (not necessarily failure) rate of between 2% and 3%. That is actually better than quite a few similiar vehicles (Explorer/Durango/etc). The 2004/2005 Pilot jumps up to a 1% problem rate. Honda is very proactive in fixing problems because they have had a comparatively large number of tranny failures in most of their other model lines that use the V6. If you look at the CR results for all the models that really had tranny problems, they get black dots for a poor reliability rating during their trouble years. If you check the internet sites for the other models (MDX/TL/etc) you will find many many posts on tranny failures. The 2003 Pilot tranny only dips to a good reliability rating and there aren't many failure posts at all as drakebullet found. |
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| drakebullet |
quote:
Originally posted by jl_ss
Honda is very proactive in fixing problems ... The 2003 Pilot tranny only dips to a good reliability rating and there aren't many failure posts at all as drakebullet found.
This is what matters to me. American Honda and my buying dealer (Stewart in Santa Maria, CA) and servicing dealer (South Bay Honda in Los Gatos, CA) were superb at answering my questions straight up and taking a financial stake in fixing the problem.
Both my Honda (Pilot) and Acura ('04 TL) are making the realities of owning a car (ie, they wear out) less full of the usual dealer/manufacturer bull. Their products are strong and they take their word-of-mouth reputation seriously.
That said, this board performs a great service to owners and Honda to keep the product and service honest. Thanks all! |
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| NHPilot |
| My wife's '03 (71K miles) had started 'bucking' as soon as it shifted into OD under light throttle. Not convinced it was the transmission, I changed the air filter, sparkplugs, and ran some fuel injector cleaner through. It seemed to get a little better but soon returned. When the emmisions light came on one night we brought it in for service this week. Turns out the EGR valve was the cause. It was changed at no charge since the valve itself was covered by an extended warranty by Honda according to a TSB. |
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