| ThePilotster |
Is your pilot Bow legged
Sorry if this is a duplicate thread
I have logged quite a few highway miles in the last 3 months and noticed that not all but quite a few Hondas & acura's rear wheels are not straight vertical where as the some of the left wheels bow in the angle similar to =(/) and some right wheels bow= (\)
Is this an alignment problem??? Some of them is only in one wheel, more noticeable when the vehicle is loaded.
Mine is only on the left side and you can not notice it unless you walk back about 50 feet and take a look, or if you have someone driving behind you, call you and tell you like my buddy did. When I take a level from the wheel well down to the ground, then measure back to the rim, it is about 3/8" off plumb.
Just wanted to know if I can approach Honda service with some solid info, as my dealer tends to say any problem is normal. |
|
|
| GreenMachine |
| Don't know it's the way it was designed to be, but I see it on lots of Honda SUV's. You are not alone... :( |
|
|
| charliekhonda |
I think it has to do with toe and camber. It is the way the suspension has been set up. If your truck is traveling straight and true, you should be OK.
If not take it to an alignment shop or the dealer for a check up. |
|
|
| DonP |
| I'm hoping someone with a Factory Service Manual will post the alignment specs. |
|
|
| Sportymonk |
quote:
Originally posted by ThePilotster
Is your pilot Bow legged
... snip ... not all but quite a few Hondas & acura's rear wheels are not straight vertical where as the some of the left wheels bow in the angle similar to =(/) and some right wheels bow= (\)
Is this an alignment problem??? Some of them is only in one wheel, more noticeable when the vehicle is loaded.
Mine is only on the left side and you can not notice it unless
Can't help but wonder since this is an intermittent problem and not on all Pilots that it might be related to the 70 mph vibration? |
|
|
| rocky |
| using independent suspension, the action status of the wheel from vertical is dependent on load. The wheel itself is merely the end of a suspension arm that travels on part of a circle. Hence the tendency to vary its position under load |
|
|
| Luwin1026 |
The condition you are referring to is called negative camber, and while it increases wear on the tires (especially on the inside edge), when properly adjusted/aligned can help roadholding as there is more available contact patch when turning/cornering.
I have a bit of negative camber in the rear of my Acura TSX, and I'll need to pull out my Pilot's alignment specs to see what they looking like as I can't recall off the top of my head. (Alignment was done after a +2 upgrade of wheels/tires).
Perhaps you can post some pics of a profile shot as well as a rear and a level ground shot so we can further advise on whether there the camber looks out of spec. You can also bring it to your trusted alignment shop or the dealer (if your vehicle is still under warranty) and have them check the camber to see if it is within specs. |
|
|
| stiles_s |
You shouldn't have much visible negative camber ( / \ ) when the Pilot is unloaded. What you're seeing out in traffic is Pilots with various amounts of rear end load. The Pilot's rear suspension's camber "goes negative" quickly as the suspension compresses. This is beneficial for handling, but bad for tire wear.
Seeing different angles on the rear could either be bad alignment, or it could be a result of one side of the rear being more heavily loaded than the other.
If you're seeing uneven negative camber on the rear when unloaded, then I'd get a good alignment shop to set you back to factory settings. |
|
|
| mxz600 |
| I have noticed the rear wheels angle out like this on my 06 Pilot also. I have a hitch on it and with the additional weight, even unloaded, the rear wheels angle out slightly. (/--\) When loaded or towing they bow out even more. I have noticed this on all Pilots I have seen and due to the indepedent rear suspension set up, this appears normal. The truck drives just fine. Because I tow on occasion, I am going to add the Airlift 1000 kit to prevent the rear from sagging and wheels from bowing out so much. |
|
|
| ThePilotster |
quote:
Originally posted by mxz600
I am going to add the Airlift 1000 kit to prevent the rear from sagging and wheels from bowing out so much.
Do you know where to get this air lift 1000 ?
I went to there web site, and they do not have a specific part for Honda(s)
Edit- update.... called there tech support and they do not have it for an 06 yet.. she said its due for release in the next month or so that there was a change from 05 to 06 and that the kit would not fit.... guess well have to wait |
|
|
| swany |
My negative camber resulted in my stock tires wearing abnormally fast and unevenly by 22K miles. I took it to a "good" alignment shop and they said that there is no specified way to adjust camber on the pilots. They found no damage and tried to loosen and move the subframe (as I recall) but it had no effect. Actually, I don't think it was really even out of the spec range.
The Pilot has a hitch but only used twice for bike rack. My wife's car for hauling 3 infants/toddlers in the 2nd row, and groceries in the back. So no abnormal weight (must be the cargo tray). I am very disappointed in this issue and the cost for going through tires. Do you think airlift will help? If so, probably worth it to protect tires.
It is visibly noticeable from right behind the vehicle. |
|
|
| jay |
| You want to see some negative camber, get a real close look at an old VW Beetle. Negative camber as far as the eye could see!:p |
|
|
| mmmmark |
| Every BMW made has this phenomenon and they use it as part of their design for that road hugging, sure-footed cornering ability. |
|
|
| DonP |
quote:
Originally posted by swany
My negative camber resulted in my stock tires wearing abnormally fast and unevenly by 22K miles. I took it to a "good" alignment shop and they said that there is no specified way to adjust camber on the pilots. They found no damage and tried to loosen and move the subframe (as I recall) but it had no effect. Actually, I don't think it was really even out of the spec range.
The inner mount of the lower control arm looks adjustable to me.
quote:
Originally posted by stiles_s
You shouldn't have much visible negative camber ( / \ ) when the Pilot is unloaded. What you're seeing out in traffic is Pilots with various amounts of rear end load. The Pilot's rear suspension's camber "goes negative" quickly as the suspension compresses. This is beneficial for handling, but bad for tire wear.
Seeing different angles on the rear could either be bad alignment, or it could be a result of one side of the rear being more heavily loaded than the other.
If you're seeing uneven negative camber on the rear when unloaded, then I'd get a good alignment shop to set you back to factory settings.
:29:
The only way anyone will know if there is a problem is to get the alignment specs and measure what their Pilot has. |
|
|
| swany |
I don't have all my specs just the two that were off.
The rear toe was: left 0.15 deg. and right -0.09 deg.
The rear camber was: left -.06 deg. and right -1.3 deg. |
|
|
| mxz600 |
There have been no changes in the rear suspension from the 2003-2005 and the 2006 4x4 (all previous years were 4x4). So the AirLift kit for the Pilot they currently have available will fit the 06 4x4. If you have an 06 2WD, you will have to wait until the specs on that come out, since I understand the rear suspension on the 2wd models had some minor changes.
P.S. I bought my kit through Summit Racing and will be putting it in in a week or so. |
|
|
| ThePilotster |
quote:
Originally posted by mxz600
There have been no changes in the rear suspension from the 2003-2005 and the 2006 4x4 (all previous years were 4x4). So the AirLift kit for the Pilot they currently have available will fit the 06 4x4. If you have an 06 2WD, you will have to wait until the specs on that come out, since I understand the rear suspension on the 2wd models had some minor changes.
P.S. I bought my kit through Summit Racing and will be putting it in in a week or so.
Let me know how that goes.. I have an 06 4WD and want the system, but as mentioned I spoke direct to tect support at air lift and they said 06 is different and it should be released in the next month or so |
|
|
| mmmmark |
quote:
Originally posted by mxz600
I understand the rear suspension on the 2wd models had some minor changes.
Do you know what these changes are? I'd be curious if anyone has a diagram showing the differences. |
|
|
| chas22 |
| I have a friend that works for Honda. After putting a new honda pilot 2006 up on a rack we looked and there is no way to adjust the rear camber. So if your springs settle over time or get weak the only thing you can do is get new springs or the Air Lift 1000 kit to repair the camber problem. I think someday that someone, maybe aftermarket will make an adjustable arm to replace the one we have now. |
|
|
| DonP |
quote:
Originally posted by chas22
I have a friend that works for Honda. After putting a new honda pilot 2006 up on a rack we looked and there is no way to adjust the rear camber. So if your springs settle over time or get weak the only thing you can do is get new springs or the Air Lift 1000 kit to repair the camber problem. I think someday that someone, maybe aftermarket will make an adjustable arm to replace the one we have now.
So what's up with that offset washer at the inner LCA mount point? That's not offset to adjust the LCA? |
|
|
| chas22 |
| The only adjustment you can get is toe-in and toe-out, but no camber adjustment. The Accords, Ridgeline, Civic etc. all the same, From what I was told was a fix was in the works. |
|
|
| mxz600 |
Below is a online Honda parts webite that Chas22 originally posted on 7/10/06. On this site, if you compare the rear suspension area and will see that the 06 4WD models are the same as the 05 and older models. You will also see that some of the rear suspension part numbers are different for the 06 2WD model.
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/
I am putting in the Airlift in my 06 4WD this weekend. Will post how it goes. |
|
|
| chas22 |
| MXZ600 Just wanted to let you know that when you go to cut off the rubber stopper in the springs that I tried to use a hacksaw and the rubber does not saw very well but it gets you a start. Try to pry the rubber over and use a very sharp knife or a box knife and the rubber cuts easy. Also I left about 1/4 inch of rubber and ran independent lines in case one was thicker than the other and I can add air more to one side if needed. |
|
|
| mxz600 |
| Chas22 - Thanks for your advice on the Airlift install! I will post the results. |
|
|
| mxz600 |
| I completed the installation of the AirLift 1000 on my 06 Pilot 4WD. For those who are wondering, the current kit available for 03-05 Pilots does fit the 06 4WD models. As Chas22 recommended, I cut the rubber stoppers off with about 1/4" remaining and that was about perfect. Gave the boat a test tow and is really kept the rear end from significant sag as compared to without the AirLift. I also ran separate air lines for each bag and mounted the filler valves in the gas cap area. |
|
|
| chas22 |
| Glad it worked out for you. |
|
|
| soilmapper |
We have had the same problem with our 04 pilot.
We have more than visual evidence rear end is sagging, because I bought a step that mounts on the wheel for accessing the rack and it fit before a trip (in November) and hasn't since we got back.
So, we took it to the dealer (50k miles, btw) to see if there was an alignment issue (I had a feeling it wasn't). The dealer said the rear springs and shocks were worn out. They quoted me $825 to fix.
That seemed a little steep, so I ordered an Airlift kit and new KYB shocks from Summit Racing.
Pretty disappointed in the suspension system to have worn out so early. We have a hitch, but haven't used it for anything other than bike rack. Other than some light offroading it doesn't see real heavy use. We have an 89 Dodge PU for that stuff.
Other than this issue, though it is perfect for a family of 5. We use the 3rd row all the time... |
|
|
| mxz600 |
Soilmapper, let us know how the install of the airlift goes and how you like it combined with the new shocks.
I have had my airlift on for over a year now and so far, it's working great. |
|
|
| scuba steve |
some negative camber isn't a bad thing. toe in/out is the biggest tire killer.
some vehicles used for racing, particularly roadracing, will use a LOT of negative camber for cornering performance. my SCCA ITA car had macpherson struts at each wheel. i would set the fronts anywhere from -3 to -5 degrees, the rears generally at -3. hard, threshold braking demanded a lot of attention at the steering wheel, but it was worth it. i used BFG r1s back then, they liked a lot of negative camber.
i run -2 f/ -2.5r degrees of camber on my daily driver miata with 1/16" of toe in. |
|
|
| soilmapper |
Since it sounds like people may be interested, I though I'd give a brief report on the Airlift 1000, Load Controller, and KYB shock installation.
Overall, it went pretty well. It took quite a while, though and left me pretty beat up. Such is the life of a DIY mechanic with only a small jack and small jackstands.
Overall I spent about 1.5 days on it. Much of this time was spent try to figure out how to mount the gauge. I finally settled on a spot on below the steering wheel, attached to the steering column. See attached picture. I'll post other pictures in following posts.
I'm pretty happy with the location of the gauge. With all that plastic, there isn't a lot to work with under there. This seemed like the most out of the way place with the least amount of plastic removal.
I ended up running the air/electric line over to the passenger side of the cab and into a frame cavity next to the passenger seat. I put the compressor on the passenger side of the Pilot, just behind the passenger seat.
Drilling the hole through the swing arm was by far the physically hardest part of the installation.
The performance of the airbags so far has been substantial. I'm really pleased. The clunk, going over big bumps we noticed is gone. The ride is much stiffer and more controlled, even with 5 psi (the min.).
If you have any questions about the installation, feel free to ask. |
|
|
| soilmapper |
| final gauge mounting picture. |
|
|
| soilmapper |
| picture of the compressor mounting location. |
|
|
| soilmapper |
| picture of the new shocks and airbags. |
|
|
|
