| Brad Parkinson |
I moved from a Toyota Tacoma (2000 4WD extended cab) to my Pilot (05 EXL). I had 165,000 trouble free miles on the Tacoma. Probably the best vehicle I had ever owned. It was still without rattles when I sold it. I would have bought another Toyota if I could have found one with a seat that did not bother my back (I have no clue why the new seats bothered me, but they did). Failing to find a good seat, in a Toyota, I looked at other options, leading me to the Pilot.
I really like my Pilot. Very nice vehicle and it is a pleasure to drive. My question is: "will it last like a Toyota?" What do you think? |
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| jay |
| Ask that question over at ToyotaNation, add to the results here, divide by 2, and you'll see it depends on who you ask.:p |
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| CMasten |
| no question. I have several friends with various Hondas with 200- or even 300- thousand miles on em.. key is keeping them maintained like IM sure you did with your Toyota. Both excellent products. |
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| sski |
| I agree. When my sister was car shopping she was looking at both Hondas and Toyotas. I told her to buy whatever she liked better and got the better deal on. Reliability was not part of the decision making process if Toyota and Honda are on your short list. She bought a Matrix. (The dealer actually gave her $1000 for her P.O.S. 1996 Chev Cavalier, I said take the money and run) |
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| gpraceman |
We have had several Toyotas, which have been good vehicles with little corrective maintenance needed. That was until we bought my wife's '00 Sienna. We lost the tranny with only 2,500 miles on it, just outside of Mesquite, NV. Toyota, of course, took care of it and gave us a rental, but it really spoiled our trip to Colorado. We didn't get the vehicle back until we had returned back to San Diego.
We had one of the window motors conk out on us. Failed in down position during winter (of course). Now the van is burning oil. I got some notice in the mail recently about a class action settlement regarding an oil gel problem, which may explain it. So, these things have soured me on Toyotas.
My '92 Acura Integra in contrast has been the best vehicle that I have owned. It has about 201K miles on it and still running strong and getting 30+ mpg. It does leak some oil, but not much. My teenage daughter is driving it now. It is a far better vehicle than the '72 Ford LTD (a tank) that I had as my first vehicle, or the Ford Torino (a scary vehicle to drive) I had after that. |
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| rockman19762001 |
| I owned Toyota's and Honda's, both have been trouble free for many miles. My only problem with Toyota or Honda has been the replacement cost for items. But, then again, when the truck or car goes over 100,000 miles with no major problem other than standard maintenance. One can afford to pay more for an alternator or water pump. I will not purchase anything in the future but Honda's or Toyota's. The Honda car's I owned have gone 150,000 miles before I replaced them. The Honda Truck was 15 years old with 140,000 on the odometer when I sold it. I would have no problem recommending a Honda product. But, just like any mass manufactured product every now and then a lemon is created. |
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| whizmo |
The only data we have (Consumer Reports) says, on average, that Toyotas have slightly fewer problems than Hondas. But for any invdividual model, it may flip back and forth. For example, the Corolla has better numbers than the Civic, but the CR-V has better numbers than the Rav-4. Even these differences, small as they are, are probably influenced by the variations in how each vehicle is used; for example, the Civic is much more likely to be bought by younger, less experienced drivers, who will probably drive it more aggressively and modify it more than a Corolla.
You're splitting hairs to draw meaningful differences between the two marques on the whole.
- Mark |
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| TR4Runner |
Interesting question.... and I think both Toyota and Honda are close in quality and reliability. As most of you probably know, Honda had some issues with the automatic transmissions in a wide selection of Honda/Acura vehicle. Toyota had some engine sludge issues in a few configuations of engines. Overall, I think the two companies are the best possible bet for reliability.
I read an article in a trade magazine that made the argument that new vehicles have reached a plateau when it comes to reliability. They became so reliable that it began to get to the point that improvements in reliability were difficult. Add the fact that vehicles are getting much more complex than ever before, and it's not a surprise that they've come to a plateau. |
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| BoomerSooner |
I've owned both Hondas and Toyotas and haven't owned any other type of available since I got my drivers license.
My first car was a 1987 Honda Prelude, I ran that thing until it had 225,000 I did alot of traveling in that thing. Just did the usual oil changes etc..
I also owned a Corolla still have it , we call it the beater, and it had 175,000 miles on it and still runs like a dream.
I had an Odyssey and had it for 115,000 miles
The wifey and I currently have a 06' Honda Accord, a 07' Camry, and of course the Pilot.
My parents own Toyotas and Honda's too, My dad drives a Sequoia and also has a Ridgeline , my mom drives Avalon .
Both my brothers each have 4-runners
My sister has an 07' CRV.
So as you can see we are happy with Hondas or toyotas, while there might be that occassional thing that may go wrong with a car, I think they have far less problems than others. |
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| whizmo |
quote:
Originally posted by TR4Runner
I read an article in a trade magazine that made the argument that new vehicles have reached a plateau when it comes to reliability. They became so reliable that it began to get to the point that improvements in reliability were difficult. Add the fact that vehicles are getting much more complex than ever before, and it's not a surprise that they've come to a plateau.
Good point. The weak points in modern automobiles are not the fundamental engine, steering, suspension, brakes, etc. systems but all the electronics, gizmos, and software. Since all the Japanese mfgs tend to use the same subcontractors for these electronics, the things that tend to govern reliability are very similar in many different cars built by different Japanese mfgs. So it's not too surprising that reliability is fairly similar.
- Mark |
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| TR4Runner |
quote:
Originally posted by whizmo
Good point. The weak points in modern automobiles are not the fundamental engine, steering, suspension, brakes, etc. systems but all the electronics, gizmos, and software. Since all the Japanese mfgs tend to use the same subcontractors for these electronics, the things that tend to govern reliability are very similar in many different cars built by different Japanese mfgs. So it's not too surprising that reliability is fairly similar.
- Mark
That's definitely a big part of overall reliability, but there is another aspect that also plays a big role--tolerances. There have been studies conducted where the drivetrain of Japanase and American vehicles have been disassembled and compared. The overwhelming majority of systems in Japanese vehicles were assembled to much tighter tolerances than the same systems in American vehicles. Most studies concluded that the tighter tolerances were a main reason that the Japanese vehicles lasted longer and were more reliable over their service lives.
I'll see if I can find some info and post a link if anyone is interested. |
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| 2007Pilotex |
quote:
Originally posted by TR4Runner
That's definitely a big part of overall reliability, but there is another aspect that also plays a big role--tolerances. There have been studies conducted where the drivetrain of Japanase and American vehicles have been disassembled and compared. The overwhelming majority of systems in Japanese vehicles were assembled to much tighter tolerances than the same systems in American vehicles. Most studies concluded that the tighter tolerances were a main reason that the Japanese vehicles lasted longer and were more reliable over their service lives.
I'll see if I can find some info and post a link if anyone is interested.
While I will agree Japanese vehicles are on the avg probably still made better, (at least better resale value) the American cars have closed the quality gap quite a bit over the years. The American cars are not made as bad as some people make them out to be. Case in point, my 2000 Infiniti i30t (made in Japan) had nothing but problems. Squeaks, rattles that would come and go, mechanical, etc. I traded that in on the Pilot, hoping the 2nd time around a Japanese car will be reliable. So far so good. My Dad's 2003 Odyssey has had it share of reliablity issues too. Transmission failure, weather seals, blower motor, etc. |
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| pjb3 |
quote:
Originally posted by TR4Runner
I'll see if I can find some info and post a link if anyone is interested.
I would be interested if you can find it. |
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| TR4Runner |
quote:
Originally posted by 2007Pilotex
While I will agree Japanese vehicles are on the avg probably still made better, (at least better resale value) the American cars have closed the quality gap quite a bit over the years. The American cars are not made as bad as some people make them out to be. Case in point, my 2000 Infiniti i30t (made in Japan) had nothing but problems. Squeaks, rattles that would come and go, mechanical, etc. I traded that in on the Pilot, hoping the 2nd time around a Japanese car will be reliable. So far so good. My Dad's 2003 Odyssey has had it share of reliablity issues too. Transmission failure, weather seals, blower motor, etc.
The problems with the Infiniti don't surprise me....Nissan isn't really in the same league as Honda and Toyota. I'd still expect a Nissan to have fewer problems (on average) than any American vehicle. Besides, nobody can really make a point by mentioned that he or she had one vehicle (of any brand) that was unreliable or problematic. Gotta look at the averages to be fair...
I agree that American vehicles have gotten better over the years, but I wouldn't say that closed the gap by very much. In my opinion, the problem is that Japanese cars got to a level that became harder and harder to improve upon. In the meantime, American cars were so bad that it was easy for them to improve. So yes, American cars may be better than they were in the past, but they have a long way to go to catch Honda/Toyota. |
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| jl_ss |
quote:
Originally posted by TR4Runner
The problems with the Infiniti don't surprise me....Nissan isn't really in the same league as Honda and Toyota. I'd still expect a Nissan to have fewer problems (on average) than any American vehicle. Besides, nobody can really make a point by mentioned that he or she had one vehicle (of any brand) that was unreliable or problematic. Gotta look at the averages to be fair...
On the average, Infiniti/Nissan makes fairly reliable cars but their larger vehicles (Armada, QX56, Quest, Titan) show up at the bottom of the reliability charts. I don't believe you can generalize a manufacturer's reliability except for maybe Honda and Toyota. Even then, they had wide problems with trannies (Honda) and engine sludge (Toyota). Everyone other brand, you need to look at the individual model category you are purchasing. |
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| pjb3 |
quote:
Originally posted by TR4Runner
That's definitely a big part of overall reliability, but there is another aspect that also plays a big role--tolerances. There have been studies conducted where the drivetrain of Japanase and American vehicles have been disassembled and compared. The overwhelming majority of systems in Japanese vehicles were assembled to much tighter tolerances than the same systems in American vehicles. Most studies concluded that the tighter tolerances were a main reason that the Japanese vehicles lasted longer and were more reliable over their service lives.
I would question the assumption that clearances and tolerances are responsible for Japanese vehicles lasting longer or that they do. A couple of points:
First, I would have to assume that the studies you are refering to are based on real world vehicles. Unless they are sure that all vehicles have been maintained to the factory standards with the same quality of products there will be different levels of wear. If you compare two vehicles, is the difference due to assembly or possibly excessive wear due to poor oil, filter, extended oil change intervals and therefore increased wear.
Second, the optimal clearances for an engine are based partly on application. The same engine could have different clearances if it is built for common street use, racing, marine, etc. As long as the clearances are correct for the application, there should be sufficient lubrication under operating conditions and reliability. Clearance and tolerances aren't always an indicator of quality.
If you wish to look at longevity I would say look at Taxi's, Police, Limo's, trucks. Most have life spans of over 250,000 miles with routine service while few personal cars reach those levels. The bottom line is some people take care of their vehicles and some don't.
It is very difficult to take real world data and produce statistically significant results. |
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| bluefin |
I've owned:
78 Datsun 280Z, loved it
85 Nissan 200sx, loved it
93 Toyota 4x4 xtra cab, sold at 115k, ran like new, replaced head gasket.
90 Acura Integra, sold at 190k, ran like new, in 190k miles, replaced radiator, alternator, brakes, tires, batteries. No other issues ever. Would have kept it, but didn't need it once I got a company car.
IMHO..I like the Honda 4cyl's better than the Toy's. My mom has an 89 Corolla that didn't seem to hold up as well as my 90 Integra. The Toyota V6's are bullet proof and the Tacoma/Tundra lines are unbeatable. Of course, we plan on having the Pilot until 300k!
All in all, personal preference. They are each light years ahead of any American or European car. |
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| jrinjax |
My Son's Tacoma had a noisy idler pulley after 10 years and 210K. I pulled it off and found a double sealed, double shielded bearing. I removed the seals and shields, regreased it and He drove it another 50K before He sold it. He then put 250K on a 4runner.
I have had several American made cars/trucks that had idlers 4 years old/120K, go from no noise to failed almost instantly.
There is a difference in build quality...
JR |
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| jonaz |
Im looking at a used Honda CRV or Toyota Rav4 for a everyday commuter vehicle, which has AWD. Looking at the reliability reports, the Rav4 seems to have better reliablity than the Honda.
My 93 Ford Ranger has 211,000 miles on it, and it still runs strong. My neighbor has a 92 Ranger (both have the 4.0 V6), and he claims 300,000 miles. My previous Explorer had 155,000 miles, and that thing screamed. Ford in my opinion makes excellent engines as well as Honda. |
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| jrinjax |
Our fleet of Fords have been reasonably dependable, but nothing like a Honda or Toyota.
We have real problems on our E250 service vans/F250s with sticking brake calipers, bad rotors, EGR actuators, AC compressors/evaporators and bad ball joints/steering components. They are also very hard to keep in alignment. The waterpumps and heater cores are only good for 150K.
They are still much better than our prior Chevrolet fleet which besides brakes, front ends, rear ends they would go through a set of rear wheel bearings [and axles] every 80-90K miles.
My personal Fords have been relatively dependable with the exception of brakes, AC compressors, and the anti-lock braking electronics [very expensive fix]. My last Chateau Van had three cracked radiators due to the oversized top tank.
The CR ratings are better on the Toyotas due to Honda's transmission issues.
JR |
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| colorider |
quote:
Originally posted by jonaz
Im looking at a used Honda CRV or Toyota Rav4 for a everyday commuter vehicle, which has AWD. Looking at the reliability reports, the Rav4 seems to have better reliablity than the Honda.
I don't think you can go wrong with either one. My brother has had excellent luck with his Rav4's and my brother-in-law has had the same with his CR-V. |
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| Abedencebas86 |
| wow :D ;) :D |
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| vinograd |
| Hondas have had more transmission problems than Toyotas. Specifically, Pilot is not immune from transmission problems but it is better than some Odysseys, Acura CL and earlier MDX or TL. Compared to a Toyota 4 cyl. manual trans pickup, new vehicles have many more systems and more parts to go wrong even if each individual part is more reliable. Engines are usually good in both. But that '76 Accord was a repeater in head gasket problems. At least this thread has been civil. At some other places, flames would erupt for daring to ask such a question. |
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| gpraceman |
quote:
Originally posted by vinograd
Hondas have had more transmission problems than Toyotas.
We had the tranny go out on our '00 Sienna at only 2500 miles. Toyota, of course, took care of everything, but it was not a good way to start out a cross country drive from CA to CO. We could have easily been out in the middle of no where when it went out. As it was, it conked out about a mile outside of Mesquite, NV. That van has been more trouble than any of our other Japanese cars added together. |
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| Jacques |
| My brother has been through a number of Toyotas though the years (Celica, Corolla, Land Cruiser, 4Runner, back to a Celica GT), while I've been through my share of Hondas (Civic hb, Civic wagon, '88 Prelude, '99 Prelude [still own], and Pilot). Between he and I, we've both had good reliability with both makes. For me personally, I've driven my current Prelude pretty hard: autocrossing for 6 years and track days for 3 years. But at 164,000+ on the clock, it still looks good, engine is still strong (my last dyno numbers on the car proved the h22a4 is far from being "tired"), tranny has held up, stock clutch lasted for 135,000 miles (now has aftermarket clutch and flywheel), the rest of the internals have held up. The only tranny issue I ever had among them was with my '88 Prelude, but it was my own doing. I neglected flushing and filling the tranny case, so eventually I toasted it when it got to 190,000 miles. I would consider getting a Toyota down the line if there was a car/SUV that would interest me...next gen Supra perhaps? :D |
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| jay |
quote:
Originally posted by colorider
I don't think you can go wrong with either one. My brother has had excellent luck with his Rav4's and my brother-in-law has had the same with his CR-V.
And it appears you're racking up the miles on the Camry Hybrid. :p |
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| 4X42k4 |
I saw a lot of things about Nissan/Infiniti not being as reliable as honda/toyota. Nissan is like the BMW of japanese cars. They go for performance/looks as the selling point. People usually buy a nissan for the performance. Now as for infinity...the quality of parts as compared to an acura is instantly notiable. Acura uses a cheaper part, especially inside. Lexus on the other hand, uses top quality materials.
I still say reliability wise:
1. Toyota/Lexus
2. Honda/Acura
3. The rest of the Japanese cars
The Nissan |
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| jl_ss |
quote:
Originally posted by 4X42k4
I saw a lot of things about Nissan/Infiniti not being as reliable as honda/toyota. Nissan is like the BMW of japanese cars. They go for performance/looks as the selling point.
Looks? How do explain this (and it is also at the bottom of the reliability ratings for it's class):
:16: |
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| 4X42k4 |
quote:
Originally posted by jl_ss
Looks? How do explain this (and it is also at the bottom of the reliability ratings for it's class):
:16:
well i should say USED to go for looks. But ever drive a titan? or a qx56? i should say wow. i was incredibly impressed with the trucks. I think they look good tho..im not too keen on the new sedans from nissan...thats why im keeping mine. :) |
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| rockman19762001 |
| When I was working for Phillips Petroleum in the 80's, Phillips had a contract to supply a finished Plastic/Teflon part to Toyota. I will always remember the day that Toyota showed up at one of our quality control meetings. Phillips had just finished a ISO 2000 review and had hit a 10% failure rate. Oh, how happy our management was slapping each other silly with our accomplishment. Well, Toyota shows up: telling us that 10% is unacceptable, that they want a 1% failure rate or they are pulling the contract. Phillips had delivered 100,000 pieces to Toyota. The next moment a group of men come in and dump 10,000 faulty plastic parts on the conference table. Toyota then says, "This is what a 10% failure rate looks like gentlemen". Well, needless to say the slap-fest of glee came to a compete end. A few weeks later Phillips back out of the contract, telling Toyota that 10% was good enough for every one else. Toyota replied "But where not every one else" end of story. |
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| 4X42k4 |
| That was VERY interesting to read...I guess it shows the dedication that Toyota has to supplying quality cars for people. I think Honda is mostly the same though, not AS good, but up there. Like we say, you cant per say, buy a Honda Pilot, have a problem and say.. HONDA STINKS! every company has flaws here and there. but so far, Ive been very happy with the Honda and its the innovative design that I like most. |
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| rocky |
quote:
Originally posted by rockman19762001
When I was working for Phillips Petroleum in the 80's, Phillips had a contract to supply a finished Plastic/Teflon part to Toyota. 10,000 faulty plastic parts on the conference table. Toyota then says, "This is what a 10% failure rate looks like gentlemen". A few weeks later Phillips back out of the contract, telling Toyota that 10% was good enough for every one else. Toyota replied "But where not every one else" end of story.
Any you wonder why American Manufacturers have a habit of being non competitive.
Land Rover USA returned the first shipment of Range Rovers in 1987 back to the UK as no acceptable. The US arm has always pushed and prodded the UK operation to get its act together..... |
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| jay |
quote:
Originally posted by rockman19762001
When I was working for Phillips Petroleum in the 80's, Phillips had a contract to supply a finished Plastic/Teflon part to Toyota. I will always remember the day that Toyota showed up at one of our quality control meetings. Phillips had just finished a ISO 2000 review and had hit a 10% failure rate. Oh, how happy our management was slapping each other silly with our accomplishment. Well, Toyota shows up: telling us that 10% is unacceptable, that they want a 1% failure rate or they are pulling the contract. Phillips had delivered 100,000 pieces to Toyota. The next moment a group of men come in and dump 10,000 faulty plastic parts on the conference table. Toyota then says, "This is what a 10% failure rate looks like gentlemen". Well, needless to say the slap-fest of glee came to a compete end. A few weeks later Phillips back out of the contract, telling Toyota that 10% was good enough for every one else. Toyota replied "But where not every one else" end of story.
I bought a '95 Ford Contour SE, and at the first good washing noticed that the surface and finish on all 4 alloy wheels wasn't smooth, and one was particularly bad. At my first service, the service writer said that any replacement wheels would come in looking the same or worse.
Of course, the first thing I checked on my next Toyota was the quality of the surface and finish on the wheels. Every single one, including the full size alloy spare, was flawless. |
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| jl_ss |
quote:
Originally posted by jay
I bought a '95 Ford Contour SE, and at the first good washing noticed that the surface and finish on all 4 alloy wheels wasn't smooth, and one was particularly bad. At my first service, the service writer said that any replacement wheels would come in looking the same or worse.
Of course, the first thing I checked on my next Toyota was the quality of the surface and finish on the wheels. Every single one, including the full size alloy spare, was flawless.
The finish on Honda wheels is usually fine - it's Honda/Acura's body paint and/or clear coat that usually has blemishes or is very thin to down right missing in some areas. I'd rather my wheels be screwed up than the body protection...... |
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| 4X42k4 |
| Well the thinner the paint is...the more chip resistant it is. Thick paint or many layers of paint is very prone to chips. I doubt that the paint on a new honda is almost missing...it had to have been compounded or buffed. I have buffed our pilot and even sanded and compounded some scratches with 2000 grit sandpaper and i've had no problems, there IS better paint out there but as far as the reliability on new honda;s the paint is pretty fair. Older ones had a lot of problems especially with rusting. |
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| jl_ss |
quote:
Originally posted by 4X42k4
Well the thinner the paint is...the more chip resistant it is. Thick paint or many layers of paint is very prone to chips. I doubt that the paint on a new honda is almost missing...it had to have been compounded or buffed. I have buffed our pilot and even sanded and compounded some scratches with 2000 grit sandpaper and i've had no problems, there IS better paint out there but as far as the reliability on new honda;s the paint is pretty fair. Older ones had a lot of problems especially with rusting.
Do a search on this forum and the MDX/Ody forums and you will find quite a few members who have had to have areas repainted because of very thin paint (where you can actually see the primer coat). Honda's reliablilty far surpasses their painting ability. Silver is their worst color. Our MDX was Silver and had numerous obvious blemishes and flaws. Our 2005 Silver Pilot has two areas that have very thin layers of clearcoat. You can feel the roughness of the paint through the extremely thin CC layer. Neither were compounded or buffed prior to delivery. I've had at least one Honda/Acura in the garage since 1985 - paint is not their strong point. |
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| chuck_tempe |
honda vs. toyota?
i've owned 3 toyota trucks and 5 hondas (cars and suvs, not including 3 honda motorcycles and a generator) currently a pilot, of course, and say all are excellent vehicles.
the best honda is by far my first, an 1986 accord hatchback. (had for 4 1/2 years and 132k miles)
the accord was japanese built and has a better quality interior than any others honda i've owned.
the interiors have gotten cheaper and cheaper over the years.
honda has slightly better looking interiors but my vote is for toyota overall.
i have other family members whom owns bmw's, nissan's, acura's, volvo's, mazda's, you name it, our big family's (or me) owned them.
by far the best cars are still toyota and honda, in that order, with toyota with a SLIGHT edge.
now, if i had more money and a use for a large truck, that new tundra is very nice.
i did own a '02 tundra and that was a great truck (and should have kept it). |
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| PhishingPhreak |
quote:
(at least better resale value) the American cars have closed the quality gap quite a bit over the years.
Is there really any better measure than resale?
As for closing the gap. I would say that is extremely overstated.
The fact that the American mfg's are laying off and buying out employees and consulting the Japanese mfg's says it all...........
This year, Toyota will take over GM as the largest auto mfg in the world, AND the best, or at least 2nd best. |
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