| robottik |
Just saw this... (and I don't think anyone is surprised by it, based on the rumors that were ging around)
Honda Dropping Accord Hybrid - Next generation Accord will not have hybrid version, diesel option possible.
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The new Honda Accord, which will go on sale in September, will not be available in a gasoline-electric hybrid version, according to a company spokesman.
"We have found that our hybrid system works better on smaller cars," said Chris Naughton, a Honda spokesman.
Honda previously announced that it will introduce a new hybrid car in 2009. That car will be smaller in size and less expensive than the Honda Civic Hybrid. The Accord, a midsized car, is larger and more expensive than the Civic.
Honda currently makes a hybrid Accord that's engineered to provide a balance of performance and fuel economy, using a 6-cylinder gasoline engine rather than a smaller 4-cylinder engine.
The competing Toyota Camry Hybrid uses a four-cylinder engine resulting in considerably better fuel economy than the Accord Hybrid.
Hybrids accounted for 14 percent of Camrys sold last month, but just 1.4 percent of Accords, according to data from Power Information Networks, an auto research firm. The Accord and Camry are the two best-selling passenger cars in the United States.
"We have seen that what interests hybrid consumers is ultimate fuel economy," Naughton said.
Honda has previously said it will introduce a new 4-cylinder diesel engine in the United States by 2009. Diesel engines get considerably better fuel economy than gasoline engines without the technical complexity of gasoline-electric hybrid systems.
With cleaner diesel fuel available here, allowing engines to meet strict emissions requirements, diesel cars will become more widely available in this country in coming years.
Honda has not said whether the Accord would get the diesel engine. The European version of the Accord - a car sold in the United States as the Acura TSX - is available in Europe with a diesel engine. |
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| Mainer |
| They should have done like the Camry and gone for economy rather than performance. Nobody buys a hybrid because it's the fastest model. They just want decent acceleration and high gas mileage. |
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| robottik |
quote:
Originally posted by Mainer
They should have done like the Camry and gone for economy rather than performance. Nobody buys a hybrid because it's the fastest model. They just want decent acceleration and high gas mileage.
Agree. Honda misread the market on the Accord Hybrid. |
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| GreenMachine |
From Edmunds.com
quote:
TOKYO — In what may signal a major strategy shift by Honda, the Japanese automaker will phase out the gas-electric version of its Accord next year and replace it with a clean diesel, according to the Nikkei.
The move is expected to reflect Honda's future emphasis on clean diesels, in contrast to Toyota's focus on hybrids. The report says Honda will offer clean diesel options in its CR-V and Odyssey minivan as well.
In North America, Honda apparently will only offer hybrid systems in its smallest vehicles, including the Civic and a Fit-based subcompact car.
Inside Line has learned from supplier sources that the upcoming Accord diesel is likely to be a torquey 2.5-liter unit that gets 45 mpg on the highway and is inspired by diesels from Fiat and Renault. Honda is also said to be working on multiple-displacement diesels for the U.S. market. The move toward diesels by Honda is seen as a very significant step that may ultimately rewrite the book on diesels, since Honda is widely viewed as a leader in powertrain engineering. The Accord diesel is also expected to help Honda regain sales momentum that it has lost to Toyota in the alt-fuel fight.
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| ramirami |
quote:
Originally posted by Mainer
They should have done like the Camry and gone for economy rather than performance. Nobody buys a hybrid because it's the fastest model. They just want decent acceleration and high gas mileage.
but people buy Honda Accords for Performance (unlike the Camrys). |
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| rocky |
quote:
Originally posted by ramirami
but people buy Honda Accords for Performance (unlike the Camrys).
This is like the Miller light ads.
Taste Great....less filling.
Lets face it.
The Honda Accord hybrid totally missed the market. Toyota nailed the market pretty good. |
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| dgipalo |
quote:
Originally posted by rocky
This is like the Miller light ads.
Taste Great....less filling.
Lets face it.
The Honda Accord hybrid totally missed the market. Toyota nailed the market pretty good.
If my experience is typical, not necessarily. The Accord hybrid was sticker-priced $3K or so above a V6 EX. However, the V6 EX could be had for $2K below sticker without even trying, while the hybrid was not discounted at all by the local dealers (and was in fact surcharged). The $5K+ difference, with less equipment (lack of sunroof, for example), made a marginal value proposition totally out of whack.
Given how the marketing went, I suspect that the Accord hybrid, and its VERY limited availability (at least per the local dealers) was mainly a publicity stunt, rather than an intended volume seller. The Camry hybrid availability has been decent in this area, albeit with a premium (but not as outrageous one as the Accords). Maybe the situation was different in other parts of the country, by in NE Florida at least, IMHO the Accord was killed by Honda's marketing and dealers' greed. |
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| jdeanski |
quote:
Originally posted by GreenMachine
From Edmunds.com
"The move is expected to reflect Honda's future emphasis on clean diesels, in contrast to Toyota's focus on hybrids. "
I think Honda will lose this battle, the public is more attuned to to hybrids than diesels. |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by jdeanski
I think Honda will lose this battle, the public is more attuned to to hybrids than diesels.
Only temporarily, mostly due to the (stupid) hype by (no-nothing) celebrities. |
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| AJR |
To me, even the quietest diesel is still a loud engine! I don't know if I would ever buy a diesel.
What they failed to mention is that on top of all the things dgipalo listed above, the Accord Hybrid has no trunk space because it's all being used by the batteries! Why would I buy a nice car to take trips with the family only to have to get a roof rack or sit next to the luggage!
I can't believe that Honda missed the mark on the Accord Hybrid, considering how well they did with the Civic Hybrid. I would have thought the Civic Hybrid would have done much better in sales, but Toyota just promoted the hell out of the Prius, whereas I've seen 1 commercial for the Civic Hybrid. I love mine. I think its as spacious and comfortable as the Accord! I would have liked more choices in colors, but I could care less about leather seats. I tried to get my wife to get one too. She drove mine for the first 3 weeks and really did like it, but she had a minivan for 7 years, and to her she felt confined to a smaller space than the van, and just kept thinking "I need more room"... so she got the Pilot EX-L. |
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| ramirami |
quote:
Originally posted by rocky
This is like the Miller light ads.
Taste Great....less filling.
unless the twins are fighting about it :2: |
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| sski |
First off let me say I am a Honda fan but I think part of Honda's problem with hybrids is what you get for what you pay.
Accord Hybrid = 31K, 28 city/35 hwy mpg
Camry Hybrid = 26K, 40 city/38 hwy mpg
Civic Hybrid = 22K, 49 city/51 hwy mpg
Prius Hybrid = 22K, 60 city/51 hwy mpg
Civic EX = 18k, 30 city/40 hwy mpg
In both comparisons (Accord/Camry, Civic/Prius) Toyota appears to be the logical choice. "Hmmm, I can either have an Accord or a Camry plus a (jetski/motorcycle/plasma tv/vacation etc...) for the same money. It's not like I'm comparing the Accord to a Chevy Malibu here. The Camry is a very real alternative. Even within the Honda family, the regular Civic is 4K less and the difference on the hwy is 11 mpg. I commute on the hwy and recall figuring it would take several years just to break even on a Civic Hybrid.
For the type of driving I do I would look seriously at a Honda Diesel, but I'm afraid it will be too expensive. Honda does not seem to be able to find the balance between engineering and price point the way Toyota has. Toyota appears to put out a better product, for less money. They are not taking a loss on their vehicles. They are now #1.
When it comes time to replace my vehicles I will go 2 places (A Honda dealer and a Toyota dealer). I really like Honda so I hope they can show me something that demonstrates they are the better choice. |
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| sjlee |
I think a big problem with the Accord Hybrid is the higher price with only about a 4 MPG increase over the regular Accord.
Unlike the Prius, it's easy for someone to determine how much more they are paying for the electric engine on an Accord Hybrid.
The Prius is a nice car. My sister-in-law has one, and I've driven it. It rides very smooth and is quiet. There's plenty of cargo room (they frequently travel with their two kids, two dogs and luggage). My only gripe is the slow acceleration. It's not horrible (0-60 in about 10 sec), but not really enough zip for me. Obviously with a car like that, you don't really expect it.
I think many people also like to show others that they are driving a "green" car. With the Civic Hybrid, it's not really as noticeable that you're driving a hybrid.
Honda really lost out with the Insight. It was very impractical, and they never redesigned it. The first Prius looked like a miniature Corolla and didn't sell very well. |
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| Mainer |
| If Honda had put a 4 cyl engine coupled with hybrid technology - they would have had a winner. I would probably have bought it over my hybrid Camry. They could have called it the E-ccord. |
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| sski |
I know this is a bit of thread drift but I researched my numbers on the US mfgr sites since most members here are American. Out of curiosity I checked Canadian numbers and a Prius here costs 31K Cdn compared to 22K USD in the states. Based on the CDN dollar sitting at about .94 against the US dollar we should be paying about 23.4K up here. Bear in mind we pay 14% tax on top of the 31K tag Toyota demands up here. I didn't mind the tax so much as it supports a social and health care system that differs from the US model, but I don't see why we get stung for an extra 7.6K on MSRP.
I actually think all Prius's are built in Japan (or now China) so its not even a matter of different labour rates between the US and Cdn.
Can someone explain this to me?? This kinda reopens discussion of hopping across the border and buying from a NY Toyata dealer. I can't imagine the duties, import taxes etc would cost 7.6 K, would they?? |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by sski
I know this is a bit of thread drift but I researched my numbers on the US mfgr sites since most members here are American. Out of curiosity I checked Canadian numbers and a Prius here costs 31K Cdn compared to 22K USD in the states. Based on the CDN dollar sitting at about .94 against the US dollar we should be paying about 23.4K up here. Bear in mind we pay 14% tax on top of the 31K tag Toyota demands up here. I didn't mind the tax so much as it supports a social and health care system that differs from the US model, but I don't see why we get stung for an extra 7.6K on MSRP.
I actually think all Prius's are built in Japan (or now China) so its not even a matter of different labour rates between the US and Cdn.
Can someone explain this to me?? This kinda reopens discussion of hopping across the border and buying from a NY Toyata dealer. I can't imagine the duties, import taxes etc would cost 7.6 K, would they??
I would guess that they are being sold at sub-par margins (subsidized) to give Toyota bragging rights. |
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| sjlee |
quote:
Originally posted by sski
I know this is a bit of thread drift but I researched my numbers on the US mfgr sites since most members here are American. Out of curiosity I checked Canadian numbers and a Prius here costs 31K Cdn compared to 22K USD in the states. Based on the CDN dollar sitting at about .94 against the US dollar we should be paying about 23.4K up here. Bear in mind we pay 14% tax on top of the 31K tag Toyota demands up here. I didn't mind the tax so much as it supports a social and health care system that differs from the US model, but I don't see why we get stung for an extra 7.6K on MSRP.
I actually think all Prius's are built in Japan (or now China) so its not even a matter of different labour rates between the US and Cdn.
Can someone explain this to me?? This kinda reopens discussion of hopping across the border and buying from a NY Toyata dealer. I can't imagine the duties, import taxes etc would cost 7.6 K, would they??
Isn't it true for other cars in Canada? I thought the Acura TSX was also priced higher in Canada than in the US. Maybe higher import taxes? |
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| sski |
You are correct (way higher...)
TSX in Canada = 37400 CDN
TSX in US = 28000 USD (29800 CDN)
Pilot in Canada (EX-L Navi) = 48000 CDN
Pilot in US (EX-L Navi) = 35500 USD (38000 CDN)
Civic In Canada = 17000 CDN
Civic in US = 15000 USD (16000 CDN)
It seems to get worse the higher up you go. Only the base DX Civic come close and we built the damned things about 20mins from my house. We still need to add PDI, Freight, admin and 14% tax to get it out the door. Actually we build the Pilot at the same plant, so I'm not sure the import tax is the driver.
I'd really like to know why Honda needs an extra $10000 to sell the Pilot in Canada. I'm sure autoworkers earn more in Alliston than Alabama (we have to earn more because of all the tax we pay),but I can't imagine they earn 26.5% more, which is the price difference after we account for the exchange rate.
It will be very interesting to see pricing when the CDN $ is equal or higher than the USD. |
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| sski |
OK, the CDN $$ is pretty much par with US now (see I told you it was coming)
I just had a quick look at the CDN and US honda sites
CDN - Pilot EX-L Navi = 46,690
US - Pilot EX-L Navi = 35,645
I can't imagine it would cost $11000 more to sell one here, would it ?? Back when the CDN $$ was worth almost 1/2 the US I could understand but whats the deal now ?? Someone smarter than me (there are many:-)) please explain the economics. |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by sski
. . I'd really like to know why Honda needs an extra $10000 to sell the Pilot in Canada. I'm sure autoworkers earn more in Alliston than Alabama (we have to earn more because of all the tax we pay),but I can't imagine they earn 26.5% more, which is the price difference after we account for the exchange rate.
It will be very interesting to see pricing when the CDN $ is equal or higher than the USD.
The issue is that pricing is not cost driven, and is based on market conditions. |
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| ramirami |
quote:
Originally posted by sski
OK, the CDN $$ is pretty much par with US now (see I told you it was coming)
I just had a quick look at the CDN and US honda sites
CDN - Pilot EX-L Navi = 46,690
US - Pilot EX-L Navi = 35,645
I can't imagine it would cost $11000 more to sell one here, would it ?? Back when the CDN $$ was worth almost 1/2 the US I could understand but whats the deal now ?? Someone smarter than me (there are many:-)) please explain the economics.
what is the actual selling price ... that dealers are selling at? |
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| whizmo |
quote:
Originally posted by sski
I know this is a bit of thread drift but I researched my numbers on the US mfgr sites since most members here are American. Out of curiosity I checked Canadian numbers and a Prius here costs 31K Cdn compared to 22K USD in the states. Based on the CDN dollar sitting at about .94 against the US dollar we should be paying about 23.4K up here. Bear in mind we pay 14% tax on top of the 31K tag Toyota demands up here. I didn't mind the tax so much as it supports a social and health care system that differs from the US model, but I don't see why we get stung for an extra 7.6K on MSRP.
I actually think all Prius's are built in Japan (or now China) so its not even a matter of different labour rates between the US and Cdn.
Can someone explain this to me?? This kinda reopens discussion of hopping across the border and buying from a NY Toyata dealer. I can't imagine the duties, import taxes etc would cost 7.6 K, would they??
It's basically just the way it is. Each market has different cost structures and you can't compare prices across borders by doing simple exchange rate conversions. Everything is different: taxes, margins, overhead, regulations, certification costs, etc. And many think that Toyota is selling every Prius in the US at a loss to build market awarenenss and share.
- Mark |
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| sski |
quote:
Originally posted by ramirami
what is the actual selling price ... that dealers are selling at?
Canadian Honda dealers are probably selling at MSRP. They do not generally play the MSRP plus/minus game. The place I find they have flexibility is options. On my Pilot the sales rep included tinting the side front windows, the crossbars, rear mud flaps etc. None of it was big stuff, just extra incentive. Generally the price is the price. If you don't purchase it, someone else will. I'm sure many potential Honda customers have walked away to get a better "deal" at the GM or Ford dealer and ended up regretting it. They will be back to Honda next time. (I know...been there, done that) |
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| sjlee |
quote:
Originally posted by sski
Canadian Honda dealers are probably selling at MSRP. They do not generally play the MSRP plus/minus game. The place I find they have flexibility is options. On my Pilot the sales rep included tinting the side front windows, the crossbars, rear mud flaps etc. None of it was big stuff, just extra incentive. Generally the price is the price. If you don't purchase it, someone else will. I'm sure many potential Honda customers have walked away to get a better "deal" at the GM or Ford dealer and ended up regretting it. They will be back to Honda next time. (I know...been there, done that)
My guess is that there are fewer Honda dealerships in Canada than in the US. Here, Honda dealers will discount vehicles just like any other dealer. With Honda dealers, the best time to get a deal is at the end of the model year... especially once the new models are out.
For example, I bought our 2005 Pilot in Nov 2005, after the 2006s were already on the lot. We paid $28,803 before taxes. This included side steps, crossbars, splash guards, towing package and wheel locks. |
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| NJGuy |
Getting back onto the topic...
My local dealer still has 3 Accord Hybrid models in stock. There's an '07 non-Nav model, an '07 nav model, and a certified pre-owned '05 non-nav model. And they're pretty well discounted. I'm sure that an interested buyer could negotiate an even better price. Considering how good my dealership is and how few were available for sale, I'm surprised that they have that many. But then again, I guess the market for this model was small to begin with and dwindled away to almost non-existence, while the competition catered to potential buyers better. For anybody in that niche market who's interested in getting the Accord Hybrid, I guess now is the time to buy.
As much as I'd like to get excited about the upcoming diesel model Accord, I really couldn't see myself getting one in the near future. My wife already has an '06 Accord that we plan on keeping 'til its death. She is also turned off by diesel vehicles due to the smell, but I don't think she's had much exposure to the newer, cleaner models. Also, I'd expect the diesel model to come with a manual transmission. I'd do almost anything to be able to own a manual shift car again, but again, the wife is pretty much done with stick-shift cars due to our stop and go traffic commutes. And if the diesel model comes with an auto transmission, I don't know if I could trust it over the long haul. We all know that Honda's reputation with automatics hasn't been flawless. You also have to consider the amount of torque the diesel will put out. Put those two things together and I think I'd still wait out the diesel model a few years if given the opportunity to purchase one. One other factor that might deter me from buying would be price. Due to demand and dealer availability I'll bet that the out the door price of the diesel models will be significantly higher than the gasoline models.
With all that said, I still applaud Honda for their plans to bring diesel engined vehicles to the fuel hungry US market. Given the success of diesel engines in Europe, I believe that clean diesel technology is simpler and perhaps a bit more practical than hybrid technology for the US's attempt to reduce fuel consumption and transition to alternative fuel sources over the next 20/30/50 years. Hopefully Honda opens the eyes of lots of car buyers and helps start a trend to make diesel cars more mainstream. |
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| ramirami |
quote:
Originally posted by sski
Canadian Honda dealers are probably selling at MSRP. They do not generally play the MSRP plus/minus game. The place I find they have flexibility is options. On my Pilot the sales rep included tinting the side front windows, the crossbars, rear mud flaps etc. None of it was big stuff, just extra incentive. Generally the price is the price. If you don't purchase it, someone else will. I'm sure many potential Honda customers have walked away to get a better "deal" at the GM or Ford dealer and ended up regretting it. They will be back to Honda next time. (I know...been there, done that)
http://www.leftlanenews.com/strong-...price-cuts.html |
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| switch |
Market conditions is BS. We have NAFTA, which is supposed to allow for cross border shopping. But what do the auto manufacturers do? Well, they say they will not honour the warranty of a vehicle purchased new in the U.S.
How can a vehicle that is built in Alliston costs a local resident almost $20K more than they would pay for the exact same vehicle at a location 3,000 miles away?
I'd bet that if the vehicles were priced the same in the US and Canada, and then the Canadian dollar tanked, the auto manufacturers would have no problems with upping the price in Canada. |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by switch
Market conditions is BS. We have NAFTA, which is supposed to allow for cross border shopping. But what do the auto manufacturers do? Well, they say they will not honour the warranty of a vehicle purchased new in the U.S.
How can a vehicle that is built in Alliston costs a local resident almost $20K more than they would pay for the exact same vehicle at a location 3,000 miles away?
I'd bet that if the vehicles were priced the same in the US and Canada, and then the Canadian dollar tanked, the auto manufacturers would have no problems with upping the price in Canada.
NATFA has nothing to do with pricing. It has to do with tariffs.
You are trying to hold onto the mistaken belief that costs are the primary driver in pricing.
Market conditions are teh driver of retail prices. Cost is just one factor. |
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| switch |
quote:
Originally posted by N_Jay
NATFA has nothing to do with pricing. It has to do with tariffs.
And what tariffs are there for these vehicles? |
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| ecsw |
quote:
Originally posted by sski
Canadian Honda dealers are probably selling at MSRP. They do not generally play the MSRP plus/minus game. The place I find they have flexibility is options. On my Pilot the sales rep included tinting the side front windows, the crossbars, rear mud flaps etc. None of it was big stuff, just extra incentive. Generally the price is the price. If you don't purchase it, someone else will. I'm sure many potential Honda customers have walked away to get a better "deal" at the GM or Ford dealer and ended up regretting it. They will be back to Honda next time. (I know...been there, done that)
huh? :confused: that's not true. Most of the Canadian Honda dealer can negotiate the price. I got around 6% off from MSRP. If you go with Acura, I can usually get 10% off. I just helped my friend bought a 2007 TL-S and got over $4k off.
However, Canadian price is not resonable any more. All Canadian Porsche 2008 models are reduced by almost 10% to reflect the exchange rate. eevry manufacture should follow. But Honda decided not to follow with their 2008 Accord. :(
Class action by Canadian consumers. :)
http://www.canada.com/globaltv/nati...c593bc2&k=57065 |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by switch
And what tariffs are there for these vehicles?
One of the many costs.
and as I said:
--------------------------------
You are trying to hold onto the mistaken belief that costs are the primary driver in pricing.
Market conditions are the driver of retail prices. Cost is just one factor. |
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| dgipalo |
quote:
Originally posted by N_Jay
Liberal wienies.
Lets have the government price fix everything. :confused: :rolleyes:
Actually, to outlaw certain contract terms and make them unenforceable is quite within the province of the legal system. The situation is very much like outlawing the stealer attempts at coercing owners to partake of their overpriced service in order to obtain warranty work. The contract terms mentioned in the story and the related punishment of dealers doing x-border trade should fall into the same category. |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by dgipalo
Actually, to outlaw certain contract terms and make them unenforceable is quite within the province of the legal system. The situation is very much like outlawing the stealer attempts at coercing owners to partake of their overpriced service in order to obtain warranty work. The contract terms mentioned in the story and the related punishment of dealers doing x-border trade should fall into the same category.
Then outlaw those actions.
Don't sue for "conspiracy".
The only conspiracy here is the Class-action lawyer who is conspiring with the 4 complainants to build a large class based on emotions, and then try to rip off the auto companies for millions and not give anything meaningful to the rest of the class. |
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| switch |
quote:
Originally posted by N_Jay
One of the many costs.
:confused:
NAFTA eliminated the tariffs for automobiles produced in North America.
Hidng behind "market conditions" is BS. If this is what drove pricing, a Pilot EX-L NAVI would cost $20K in Smalltown, Arkansas, and $35K in NYC.
There are no "market conditions" which justify the pricing of a Pilot EX-L to be $35K in Buffalo, and $50K in Toronto. |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by switch
:confused:
NAFTA eliminated the tariffs for automobiles produced in North America.
Hidng behind "market conditions" is BS. If this is what drove pricing, a Pilot EX-L NAVI would cost $20K in Smalltown, Arkansas, and $35K in NYC.
There are no "market conditions" which justify the pricing of a Pilot EX-L to be $35K in Buffalo, and $50K in Toronto.
HU????:confused: :confused:
Do you have idea what you just said?:eek:
The "Market" IS the what sets the price at which the willing sellers, sell the desired quantity of product to the willing buyers.:4:
It is the market at work, that sets the price in a working market.
You might need to re-read Adam Smith, paying close attention to the references to the "Invisible Hand"!
Maybe they don't teach economics in Canada? |
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| LChisum |
quote:
Originally posted by switch
:confused:
Hidng behind "market conditions" is BS. If this is what drove pricing, a Pilot EX-L NAVI would cost $20K in Smalltown, Arkansas, and $35K in NYC.
The Pilot will probably cost more in Smalltown, Arkansas, than a major metropolitan area because of the lack of competition and sales volume.
Larry :1pat: |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by LChisum
The Pilot will probably cost more in Smalltown, Arkansas, than a major metropolitan area because of the lack of competition and sales volume.
Larry :1pat:
It may or it may not, as there are multiple COST FACTORS, and other MARKET CONDITIONS that could account for either a higher or lower price. |
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| sjlee |
quote:
Originally posted by N_Jay
It may or it may not, as there are multiple COST FACTORS, and other MARKET CONDITIONS that could account for either a higher or lower price.
I agree with N_Jay. There's a chance that a Pilot in Arkansas would actually be less expensive than in a major metropolitan area... especially if the residents in the area had a lower income. |
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| switch |
quote:
Originally posted by N_Jay
Maybe they don't teach economics in Canada?
No. We just learn from our southern neighbours on how to keep our currency strong.
quote:
Originally posted by LChisum
The Pilot will probably cost more in Smalltown, Arkansas, than a major metropolitan area because of the lack of competition and sales volume.
Larry :1pat:
Glad to see that the view is consistent down south. :rolleyes:
I purchase bike parts all the time from the US. A lot of parts are cheaper in the US not because of market factors, but because of either volume and/or elimination of intermediaries. This holds true for numerous other consumer goods.
This whole "market value adjustment" is artificial price gouging, and nothing more than that. |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by switch
This whole "market value adjustment" is artificial price gouging, and nothing more than that.
Well if it "gouging", then you should open a discount outlet and you will make an excessive profits based on selling a higher volume than everyone else. :4:
. . .
. . .
. . .
Then when you close up the shop due to insufficient profit you will have learned a valuable lesson in free market economics :eek: !:rolleyes: |
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| rocky |
| Wonder if this thread has suffered enough drift to qualify to be moved elsewhere yet..... |
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| dgipalo |
quote:
Originally posted by N_Jay
Then outlaw those actions.
Don't sue for "conspiracy".
The only conspiracy here is the Class-action lawyer who is conspiring with the 4 complainants to build a large class based on emotions, and then try to rip off the auto companies for millions and not give anything meaningful to the rest of the class.
The base tenet of any anti-trust action is a conspiracy and a collusion to fix prices. A 'gentleman's agreement' to limit supply may well fall into that category; that will be decided during legal proceedings.
And while I agree that a fair number of class action suits (the Honda odometer error lawsuit, for one) results in a judgment that primarily benefits the lead counsel in the suit, that's more a problem with the presiding judge, and how the settlement is apportioned. Because of a lack of action by AG's, a class action ends up being the only avenue left to redress some of these collusive practices.
For example, if Honda attempted to put into a dealer contract a prohibition against mail-order sales (thus rendering our site sponsor's mail business a violation of contract), I would be among the first to join the class action to adjudicate that clause illegal. The x-border trade, and contractual prohibitions against it, very much falls into the same category. |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by dgipalo
The base tenet of any anti-trust action is a conspiracy and a collusion to fix prices. A 'gentleman's agreement' to limit supply may well fall into that category; that will be decided during legal proceedings.
And while I agree that a fair number of class action suits (the Honda odometer error lawsuit, for one) results in a judgment that primarily benefits the lead counsel in the suit, that's more a problem with the presiding judge, and how the settlement is apportioned. Because of a lack of action by AG's, a class action ends up being the only avenue left to redress some of these collusive practices.
For example, if Honda attempted to put into a dealer contract a prohibition against mail-order sales (thus rendering our site sponsor's mail business a violation of contract), I would be among the first to join the class action to adjudicate that clause illegal. The x-border trade, and contractual prohibitions against it, very much falls into the same category.
Of course it would take a conspiracy of more than just Honda to affect all auto pricing in Canada.
There are also issues where the legal requirements and even the specification of the cars are different for US and CA vehicles.
My understanding is geographic sales limitations on franchisees have been upheld in court.
If it was an artificial pricing difference, then why has not one of the other car companies taken advantage of the market distortion and made a huge killing? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Oh, can you find me one class action suit where the "class" has received a fair award compared to the lead council? |
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| larryziegler |
quote:
Originally posted by N_Jay
Oh, can you find me one class action suit where the "class" has received a fair award compared to the lead council?
Exactly!!! The attorneys are the only ones that win big in a class action suit!! |
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| jl_ss |
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Originally posted by larryziegler
Exactly!!! The attorneys are the only ones that win big in a class action suit!!
I can see the settlement now - they negotiate a whopping $500 price drop for new owners, all recent buyers get 2 free oil changes for compensation, and the lawyers get $3 billion dollars............:D |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by larryziegler
Exactly!!! The attorneys are the only ones that win big in a class action suit!!
Not according to dgipalo.
Guess he will give us lots of good examples soon. |
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| dgipalo |
quote:
Originally posted by N_Jay
Not according to dgipalo.
Guess he will give us lots of good examples soon.
And exactly what would have given ground for THAT assertion?
In most contingency-fee lawsuits, the lawyer on both sides are the ones that make out the best. Much like CEOs that make millions by laying off workers, it's a rigged game. Unfortunately, it's also the only game in town; torches, pitchforks, and hangman's ropes are out of style.
Much in the same way the average schmo is at a disadvantage 'negotiating' the vehicle price. Unfortunately, because the AGs have been unwilling to actively enforce anti-trust laws, class action is the only route available to address the rip-off. And getting $500 (or whatever figure ends up being the case) is better than the manufacturers getting away with the rip-offs, even if the lawyers make out. By making certain business behavior VERY expensive, there is a hope it'll stop. Unfortunately, with certain industries, it hasn't been as effective as one may have hoped. |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by dgipalo
And exactly what would have given ground for THAT assertion?
In most contingency-fee lawsuits, the lawyer on both sides are the ones that make out the best. Much like CEOs that make millions by laying off workers, it's a rigged game. Unfortunately, it's also the only game in town; torches, pitchforks, and hangman's ropes are out of style.
Much in the same way the average schmo is at a disadvantage 'negotiating' the vehicle price. Unfortunately, because the AGs have been unwilling to actively enforce anti-trust laws, class action is the only route available to address the rip-off. And getting $500 (or whatever figure ends up being the case) is better than the manufacturers getting away with the rip-offs, even if the lawyers make out. By making certain business behavior VERY expensive, there is a hope it'll stop. Unfortunately, with certain industries, it hasn't been as effective as one may have hoped.
Because you said:
quote:
Originally posted by dgipalo
. . . .And while I agree that a fair number of class action suits (the Honda odometer error lawsuit, for one) results in a judgment that primarily benefits the lead counsel in the suit, that's more a problem with the presiding judge, and how the settlement is apportioned. . . . .
From my experience, that "fair number" is something near 100%.
Maybe you meant to say "most" or "all", and it was a typo?:rolleyes:
If this goes to court it will end up like many price fixing lawsuits, just proving that a fair number of people do not understand how the free market works.
If they win it will be mostly due to the jury not understanding any better. |
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| dgipalo |
quote:
Originally posted by N_Jay
Because you said:
From my experience, that "fair number" is something near 100%.
Maybe you meant to say "most" or "all", and it was a typo?:rolleyes:
If this goes to court it will end up like many price fixing lawsuits, just proving that a fair number of people do not understand how the free market works.
If they win it will be mostly due to the jury not understanding any better.
Part of that depends on your definition of benefits. The only settlements I'd classify in the 'lawyers are only winners' is where >20% of settlement goes to the lead counsel. The fact that the class plaintiffs net per-capita judgment is low is incorrect assessment of the merits of the suit. Even if the per capita damages are low, the aggregate damage can be quite high, and needs to be appropriately discouraged. The Honda Odometer settlement is a case in point. Although the extra 800 miles of warranty coverage is trivial, the aggregate lease overcharges from excess mileage are likely to be sizable. Another example is the Sears settlement, where the sleazes charged for 4-wheel alignment where only front wheel settings were adjustable. The per-capita overcharge was $20 or so, but in the aggregate benefit to the defendant was in the millions. IMHO, that sort of behavior should have brought criminal charges against the 'executives' in charge(as well as the crooks in the trenches). |
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| switch |
quote:
Originally posted by N_Jay
If this goes to court it will end up like many price fixing lawsuits, just proving that a fair number of people do not understand how the free market works.
If they win it will be mostly due to the jury not understanding any better.
What the jury decides is dependant on the case presented, not your interpretation of "free market".
I guess that because all automotive companies stand to gain and that Canadians, not Americans, get hosed, it's OK by US standards and is what the US defines as a "free market". |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by dgipalo
Part of that depends on your definition of benefits. The only settlements I'd classify in the 'lawyers are only winners' is where >20% of settlement goes to the lead counsel. The fact that the class plaintiffs net per-capita judgment is low is incorrect assessment of the merits of the suit. Even if the per capita damages are low, the aggregate damage can be quite high, and needs to be appropriately discouraged. The Honda Odometer settlement is a case in point. Although the extra 800 miles of warranty coverage is trivial, the aggregate lease overcharges from excess mileage are likely to be sizable. Another example is the Sears settlement, where the sleazes charged for 4-wheel alignment where only front wheel settings were adjustable. The per-capita overcharge was $20 or so, but in the aggregate benefit to the defendant was in the millions. IMHO, that sort of behavior should have brought criminal charges against the 'executives' in charge(as well as the crooks in the trenches).
You mean this settlement?
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/646201.html
A North Carolina judge has harshly criticized the settlement of a class-action lawsuit in which a Wilmington lawyer and colleagues received $950,000 in fees while consumers who Sears overcharged across the country were reimbursed a total of $2,402.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by switch
What the jury decides is dependant on the case presented, not your interpretation of "free market".
I guess that because all automotive companies stand to gain and that Canadians, not Americans, get hosed, it's OK by US standards and is what the US defines as a "free market".
But they sell more cars here so they would make even more money by raising prices in the US??
Why don't they do that?
Market prices are determined where the number of willing sellers sell the desired number of units to that number of willing buyers.
If the price is "too high" they will not find enough buyers. If the price is too low the buyers will not find enough sellers/units.
It's really a simple concept once you unwrap the concept of the "evil corporation" from strangling your brain, and unhook your thinking that it "should" be based on costs. |
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