| N_Jay |
| In your opinion, where is the line between the Upper income class and the Middle income class? |
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| larryziegler |
| That's a floating number, depending upon where you live. In Central Calif, I put $150k, however, if I lived in So Cal or the SF Bay Area, that number would go to $200-$250k. There are parts of the country, where $75k might be accurate as well. |
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| 5Gs |
| so what do you consider as upper income class? top 5%? top 10%? |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by 5Gs
so what do you consider as upper income class? top 5%? top 10%?
Its about perception.
When you hear the term, what does it mean to you? |
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| 5Gs |
quote:
Originally posted by N_Jay
Its about perception.
When you hear the term, what does it mean to you?
yes it is, and that's what I was asking you. |
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| Flyimports |
I see that most voters placed it in the 150K range. I say "WOW!". 150K doesn't go very far, especially after ridiculous taxes, and I'm not sure you'd call it "Upper Class" if you lived in it. I think alot more average (2 income) families are making 150K than you think.
Just my opinion |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by 5Gs
yes it is, and that's what I was asking you.
But my opinion might influence the results.
Lets see where it ends up.
I need to find a decent way to graph this. |
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| Samuel2003 |
| Is this for a homework project? :p |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by Samuel2003
Is this for a homework project? :p
Nope, just personal curiosity. |
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| Nathan_P |
quote:
Originally posted by N_Jay
In your opinion, where is the line between the Upper income class and the Middle income class?
Household income or single income? It doesn't specify. |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by Nathan_P
Household income or single income? It doesn't specify.
Either.
When a talking head uses the phrase what do you assume they mean? |
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| 5Gs |
quote:
Originally posted by N_Jay
But my opinion might influence the results.
Lets see where it ends up.
I need to find a decent way to graph this.
fair enough...I guess I'll withhold my opinion too then. it would be nice if somehow this poll had geographical results too. like others have mentioned, it all depends on where you live that determines the value. |
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| jay |
Wouldn't it be interesting to be able to track respondents answers on income, as in this poll, and net worth. To me, at this time, net worth is a better indicator of "class" than annual income.
Of course standard of living versus quality of life is another thread unto itself.:p |
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| Sportymonk |
Well, being a high school teacher while I wait for my wife to finish her PhD and with a son in his second year of college, I guess I am in the poverty mode.
When I think of high income, I reflect on how many are not so I picked a lower figure. If I made $150,00 a year I would be dancing on the roof. Then again, money isn't everything as the saying goes. I would rather do something I am happy at. (Unfortunately I'm not at the moment.)
quote:
Originally posted by Flyimports
I see that most voters placed it in the 150K range. I say "WOW!". 150K doesn't go very far, especially after ridiculous taxes, and I'm not sure you'd call it "Upper Class" if you lived in it. I think alot more average (2 income) families are making 150K than you think.
Just my opinion
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| 5Gs |
quote:
Originally posted by Sportymonk
Well, being a high school teacher while I wait for my wife to finish her PhD and with a son in his second year of college, I guess I am in the poverty mode.
When I think of high income, I reflect on how many are not so I picked a lower figure. If I made $150,00 a year I would be dancing on the roof. Then again, money isn't everything as the saying goes. I would rather do something I am happy at. (Unfortunately I'm not at the moment.)
whether or not you continue to be a teacher, I do have a lot more respect for teachers than lawyers who make too much as far as I'm concerned (especially those class action lawsuit attorneys). |
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| jdeanski |
quote:
Originally posted by jay
To me, at this time, net worth is a better indicator of "class" than annual income.
I'm not so sure of that. My net worth is about 20 times my income. Real spendable income pays the bills paper net worth doesn't. |
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| krygny |
quote:
Originally posted by N_Jay
Its about perception.
...
It's about geography too. Middle class in San Jose is filthy stinkin' rich in West Virginia.
Also, when I was a kid, a millionaire was a big deal. Now, if you're not yet a millionaire, you eventually will be. |
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| jay |
quote:
Originally posted by jdeanski
I'm not so sure of that. My net worth is about 20 times my income. Real spendable income pays the bills paper net worth doesn't.
And there are a lot of people around here who have household incomes of $150-200K, who bought starter castles for $800k three years ago. They drive Beemers, the house is now worth $650k or less, but the mortgage is $770k, all the credit cards are close to maxed out, and the contribution to the 401k is 0, zip, nada. Sure, they're upper class.:eek: |
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| jay |
quote:
Originally posted by krygny
It's about geography too. Middle class in San Jose is filthy stinkin' rich in West Virginia.
Also, when I was a kid, a millionaire was a big deal. Now, if you're not yet a millionaire, you eventually will be.
I was born in West Virginia, the grandson of a miner who earned $100 a month in scrip, monopoly money that he could spend in the company store. He sold his scrip for $80 greenbacks a month, and moved his family out of there so I could start school in Charleston.
I calculate that I need to be almost a $2 millionaire to be able to retire comfortably. :( I'd like to have that United Mine Workers retirement health care though. :4: |
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| ncelk |
quote:
Originally posted by jay
And there are a lot of people around here who have household incomes of $150-200K, who bought starter castles for $800k three years ago. They drive Beemers, the house is now worth $650k or less, but the mortgage is $770k, all the credit cards are close to maxed out, and the contribution to the 401k is 0, zip, nada. Sure, they're upper class.:eek:
Sad, but true.
It goes on everywhere, not just there. Lots of people living FAR beyond their means. I have a friend that fits your description to a tee.
He does not worry much about his financial situation. He says he will die of a heart attack by 50, so why worry about retirement. This is not a joke either, he means it. |
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| dragoncoach |
| There are just too many variables to make this poll meaningful. Region is a very big determining factor. People who live in a small city comfortably won't even be able to move into a city like SF and buy a house. The opposite is true if the situation were reversed. Still can't figure this poll out... |
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| krygny |
quote:
Originally posted by jay
And there are a lot of people around here who have household incomes of $150-200K, who bought starter castles for $800k three years ago. They drive Beemers, the house is now worth $650k or less, but the mortgage is $770k, all the credit cards are close to maxed out, and the contribution to the 401k is 0, zip, nada. Sure, they're upper class.:eek:
All in their own personal pursuit of happiness, and I'm fine with it. I just don't want to hear any whining from them if things turn bad. You crash and burn, you're on your own. |
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| jdeanski |
quote:
Originally posted by ncelk
Sad, but true...............
I have a friend that fits your description to a tee..........
He does not worry much about his financial situation. He says he will die of a heart attack by 50, so why worry about retirement. ...........
Hopefully none of his pessimism will rub off on you. Bet he changes his tune when he hits his mid 40's. |
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| colorider |
quote:
Originally posted by jay
And there are a lot of people around here who have household incomes of $150-200K, who bought starter castles for $800k three years ago. They drive beemers, the house is now worth $650k or less, but the mortgage is $770k, all the credit cards are close to maxed out, and the contribution to the 401k is 0, zip, nada. Sure, they're upper class.:eek:
That settles it - the BMW is going up for sale!!!! :D |
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| hondacuraworld |
quote:
Originally posted by krygny
All in their own personal pursuit of happiness, and I'm fine with it. I just don't want to hear any whining from them if things turn bad. You crash and burn, you're on your own.
Money's a fleeting thing, and can come and go in a minute, as witnessed by those who overpaid for homes, etc.
Take me.....I was on top of the world once, three weeks ago I lost everything.
There's a lot of bad times to come for a lot of people, and there are a lot of people that are going to be bankrupt and homeless because of their excess greed (or that of their spouses, Heaven forbid).
The worst part about determining upper class is that IMO in everyone's mind it's about 50% higher than the salary they make now.
I crashed and burned, and I was on my own. But I'm not out.
The reason I'm even mentioning this is that krygny's post was spot on the mark in many ways. Luxury is relative to everyone's situation. In many cases, the rich man with money would give it all up in a second to cure his cancer, and the poor man would gladly lay his life down to painful chemotherapy to give his family a good life. |
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| krygny |
quote:
Originally posted by hondacuraworld
Money's a fleeting thing, and can come and go in a minute, as witnessed by those who overpaid for homes, etc.
Take me.....I was on top of the world once, three weeks ago I lost everything.
There's a lot of bad times to come for a lot of people, and there are a lot of people that are going to be bankrupt and homeless because of their excess greed (or that of their spouses, Heaven forbid).
The worst part about determining upper class is that IMO in everyone's mind it's about 50% higher than the salary they make now.
I crashed and burned, and I was on my own. But I'm not out.
The reason I'm even mentioning this is that krygny's post was spot on the mark in many ways. Luxury is relative to everyone's situation. In many cases, the rich man with money would give it all up in a second to cure his cancer, and the poor man would gladly lay his life down to painful chemotherapy to give his family a good life.
I know a few people in your situation and a few more who likely will be soon. I don't mean to be callus about it, but some I can talk to; others I can't even listen to.
Best of luck. |
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| hondacuraworld |
My situation wasn't bankruptcy, the synopsis is that my wife wronged me in every possible way and then told me to get out.
I don't mean to derail the thread, if you're curious go over to www.crossroadspond.com , you'll have to register to view.
Anyways, sorry to derail.... |
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| OB3 |
I live in one of the 5 boroughs of NYC and nothing in this area is cheap... Gas, Housing, utilities, heck, even Milk. My wife and I both work full time, me in IT for a major online brokerage firm, and my wife is an elementary school teacher with the NYC board of Ed. We make a modest living between the both of us (~175-185k/year), yet we live WAY below our means at the present time. We purchased a small house in a nice area around 5 years ago and put down 20%. When we do things to improve our home, we save up and pay for everything in cash, we have never touched an equity line of credit once. I drive a 10 year old honda to work everyday, my wife has a 4 year old Pilot. I do as much as i can around the house so we are able to put away money for our sons college fund, for our vacation fund, and for savings in general.
We also have friends that are in a similar salray range, yet feel the need to lease a brand new BMW, a brand new Lexus, and they did a roof raising to the tune of $250,000 last spring on top of the 440k they paid for the house. They eat out 5 days a week, have parties at restaurants instead of home, yet they continually ask us to babysit bc they can not afford to pay a babysitter 10 dollars an hour.
The kicker is, they are in an interest only mortgage for upwards of 600 thousand dollars and pay about 4100 a month. They have admitted ot us that they are net negative cash flow at the end of hte month, thus writing checks against credit cards.
I truely do not understand how they steep at night. I could never. They ask what they should do, the first thing i tell them is to get out of their leases and go buy a honda accord, but they feel embarrassed to drive that.... unreal how they feel the need to keep up with the jones.
Especially when most of hte jones are headed to foreclosure.
In the end, people jsut need to be happy with what they can afford, slow and steady always winds the race
i will stop now. |
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| tim.s |
quote:
Originally posted by krygny
All in their own personal pursuit of happiness, and I'm fine with it. I just don't want to hear any whining from them if things turn bad. You crash and burn, you're on your own.
Unfortunately in this connected society, when they crash and burn, you are affected whether they are whining or not.
People from lower to upper class live beyond their means. And then when they can't cover an expense, someone, somewhere always ends up assuming that debt. The expense of that debt is then passed to the next customer who can afford to pay in the form of higher prices, higher premiums, higher interest rates, higher taxes, etc...
For some, it simply means that they choose to buy new clothes each week instead of paying for health insurance. Then when they need it, the county (i.e., you and your taxes) ends up paying their hospital bills.
For others, it means blowing all their money on expensive homes and cars and then straining social services (i.e., you and your taxes) throughout their retirement. |
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| sski |
"Buyin' things they don't need, with money they don't have, to impress people they don't like" (feel free to use this, I heard it somewhere)
I know people financing thier house on an interest only credit line. I couldn't do it either. If it's a short term measure get you past a bump or unfortunate life event...no problem. If it's the norm, you need to re-adjust your life. Nobody "needs" a 5000 sq ft house. A 1200 sq ft house in a decent neighbour will suffice. I am one of 5 children and the house I grew up in was a 1250 sq ft semi-detached (4 bedrooms, two bathrooms...Oh No!!...some of the kids had to share a bedroom...ha ha). We all turned out just fine, all have good jobs and families and no one's in prison. For that matter nobody really "needs" a Pilot. A CR-V or an Element would probably get the job done in the vast majority of cases and at fraction of the cost. |
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| krygny |
quote:
Originally posted by OB3
...
We also have friends that are in a similar salray range, yet feel the need to lease a brand new BMW, a brand new Lexus, and they did a roof raising to the tune of $250,000 last spring on top of the 440k they paid for the house. They eat out 5 days a week, have parties at restaurants instead of home, yet they continually ask us to babysit bc they can not afford to pay a babysitter 10 dollars an hour.
...
So, in a way, you, who use good judgment, pay part of the price for their poor judgment. That's where I draw the line. Your good nature is a virtue until someone takes advantage of it.
How's this - my wife's family, to a person, is pathologically incapable of saving money. No matter how well any of them may be doing at any particular time, they seem to think that money in the bank is just going to waste. In the foreseeable future, I will have to pony up about $12,000 of my own money to pay for the funeral of someone I couldn't give a $#&% about, simply because we're the OOOOOOooonly ones with the sense to save any money. |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by krygny
. .. In the foreseeable future, I will have to pony up about $12,000 of my own money to pay for the funeral of someone I couldn't give a $#&% about, simply because we're the OOOOOOooonly ones with the sense to save any money.
Buy them a Burial Insurance policy for Christmas. |
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| krygny |
quote:
Originally posted by N_Jay
Buy them a Burial Insurance policy for Christmas.
What's that? (sorry for the thread drift) |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by krygny
What's that? (sorry for the thread drift)
Usually it is structured as a one-payment life insurance policy intended to pay burial expenses. |
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| scuba steve |
i'm 35, wife is 32. we moved from charlotte,nc to socal last year. $150k is a comfortable income, not upper class. in charlotte, that income is even easier to live with. in detroit where i grew up, it's the middle between the two. we live within our means, i don't need flashy new cars, and if i do something with our cars, i usually build it myself or look for bargains.
it's spooky how many people we know of in all three cities who are our age who have no idea about financial planning.
my wife and i are who we are, we don't need to measure to anyone's expectations except our own. |
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| colorider |
quote:
Originally posted by scuba steve
my wife and i are who we are, we don't need to measure to anyone's expectations except our own.
Well said!!!!!! :7: |
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| netman88 |
IMO if you have a Pilot still with the gas prices this high, you are probably not as bad shape as some.
If people couldn't afford them, I guess they would have sold/traded it for something else by now.
When my wife was working life was really good since we have a pretty good income but in the SF Bay Area (SJ to be exact), the cost of housing, food, taxes (ick) is way out of line compared to other parts of the country.
Now things has changed for us since we have kids and says home. Life isn't what it use to be so we cut back spending.
I don't even think we are considered middle class by any means. Still, we are taxed to death every year so that hasn't changed.
Buying a reliable car or SUV is a good way to put one headache aside from massive car repair bills.
What happen to the dot com in stock... (no more freebies I guess).
Why so many foreclosures, for one like other have said.. people have refinanced their home to take the money out for fancy Hummers, BMW, High end Lexus, and moer or even those expensive travel and wild parties.
Now, with the ARM moving up, people can't pay and they can't sell their homes since the market is flooded with people trying to sell also.
I saw a news clip that one person was having his house foreclosed within a few days and he is driving a Bently parked outside. (something is wrong with his priorities).
Btw, every 5-7 years, the housing market corrects in the SF Bay Area, it has always come back strong. |
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| scuba steve |
that's disturbing, but what does it say about the companies that are allowing that person to purchase those items?
i think a lot of people don't ask themselves the hard questions about what they feel comfortable with paying versus what a lender is willing to give them.
i do not want to buy a home right now, particularly in socal. when i feel comfortable that the market has stabilized, i will. |
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| netman88 |
In most cases, it's best to buy when the market is bad. By doing so, you can bargain for the better price.
Interest rates are still low.
Many don't see the housing market rebound big time til maybe next year at the earliest. |
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| N_Jay |
Wow!
This thread has generated a ton of comments I was not even expecting.:eek:
I would reply to some, but . . . . :confused: |
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