| OB3 |
So, the wife and I decided to hold off another year, possibly 2, for a new SUV. We jsut sent in the last payment for the Pilot, it is officially ours now, so not having a car payment will be a nice thing for a while.
We were chatting about hybrids, she was asking me if i thought Honda would have a Pilot hybrid anytime soon, and i said probably not.
What are your opinions on the hybrids out there today ?
The Vue ?
The Escape?
the Highlander ??
I think these all come in hybrid versions ??
Anyone had experience with an SUV hybrid ?
thanks |
|
|
| robrecht |
I think the main question is how expensive does gas have to get before they will be cost-effective, let's say within 3 years of purchase?
What's the cost differential between similarly equipped hybrid and non-hybrid models? |
|
|
| jay |
The way they've equipped and priced the Camry Hybird, you'd be hard pressed to sort out the differential. With the '08 Highlander Hybrid, at least comparing top-line models, there's about a $3000 add. But they are expensive, at an MSRP of close to $46k with an average $1500 off MSRP.
The same top-line Vue and Escape are much less expensive, but much smaller, and the Vue has much less equipment even in the "loaded" model - you can't get leather or NAV in the Vue. But it does come standard with Onstar and XM. :p
An Escape with leather, NAV, Sirius Radio, etc. sticker's at $32k or so, and purportedly gets the same mileage as my Camry Hybrid.
And circling back to the cost differential, I place a high value on the stress-reduction in my commute by being able to use the HOV lane with just me in the car, the smoothness of the CVT transmission that's not available otherwise, and the additional quietness of the vehicle.
So to me, you can't do a straight economic comparison, just like you can't compare the cost of TiVo versus a Comcast DVR, because you can't place value on the user experience, the value of recordings that the Comcast DVR won't record, etc. :p Just like you can't compare the iPhone user experience to a crap WM6 device. :D |
|
|
| robrecht |
quote:
Originally posted by jay
Just like you can't compare the iPhone user experience to a crap WM6 device. :D
LOL! Learned how to post pics from your iPhone yet?
:needpics: |
|
|
| rocky |
Its going to be interesting to see whether Honda and others charge a premium for diesels.
In Europe when diesels weren't popular there was a premium. No premium today.
Watch for hybrid pricing premium to drop if Toyota considers diesel a threat to its hybrid franchise |
|
|
| jay |
quote:
Originally posted by rocky
Its going to be interesting to see whether Honda and others charge a premium for diesels.
In Europe when diesels weren't popular there was a premium. No premium today.
Watch for hybrid pricing premium to drop if Toyota considers diesel a threat to its hybrid franchise
With the eye-popping price of deisel in this country (regularly 50 cents more a gallon), and the old myth drawbacks to overcome, where's the threat? I wouldn't take a diesel Chevette if you paid me to take it off your hands, no matter what Joe Isuzu said!:1: |
|
|
| jdeanski |
quote:
Originally posted by rocky
Its going to be interesting to see whether Honda and others charge a premium for diesels.
What's going to be really interesting is if you will see diesels at all in the near future from Honda. My money is on we won't. |
|
|
| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by jdeanski
What's going to be really interesting is if you will see diesels at all in the near future from Honda. My money is on we won't.
Why?
They have one of the best small diesel engines, and starting next year auto-diesel will be readily available over here.
Diesel has a 20% to 40% advantage in MPG. |
|
|
| krygny |
quote:
Originally posted by OB3
...
What are your opinions on the hybrids out there today ?
...
Overpriced, under-performing and unproven. (Sorry, but you asked. :p ) |
|
|
| jdeanski |
quote:
Originally posted by N_Jay
Why?
They have one of the best small diesel engines, and starting next year auto-diesel will be readily available over here.
Diesel has a 20% to 40% advantage in MPG.
To the AVERAGE consumer diesels are noisy, smelly, sooty and "I'm not driving a Petertbilt"... plus......have you seen the price of diesel lately? Sorry N-Jay.........it will take a lot for diesels to catch on and Honda is far too conservative of a company. |
|
|
| krygny |
quote:
Originally posted by jdeanski
To the AVERAGE consumer diesels are noisy, smelly, sooty and "I'm not driving a Petertbilt"... plus......have you seen the price of diesel lately? Sorry N-Jay.........it will take a lot for diesels to catch on and Honda is far too conservative of a company.
The only real problem with a diesel is figuring out how to get the rest of the car to last as long as the engine.
I sense a trend in the coming years back toward diesels because of their simplicity, reliability, efficiency and versatility in fuels. I understand Honda has an extensive diesel development program with the specific intent to bring them to market, not just concepts. And who's got better engines than Honda? |
|
|
| jdeanski |
quote:
Originally posted by jdeanski
To the AVERAGE consumer diesels are noisy, smelly, sooty and "I'm not driving a Petertbilt"... plus......have you seen the price of diesel lately? Sorry N-Jay.........it will take a lot for diesels to catch on and Honda is far too conservative of a company.
From Business Week:http://www.businessweek.com/magazin...44/b4007079.htm
"Elegant or not, diesel may prove to be a tough sell to Americans. Diesels represent more than 40% of new car sales in Europe, where the cleaner brand of the fuel has been available since 1997. But stateside, diesel still conjures up images of smoke-belching 18-wheelers. Americans of a certain age haven't forgotten Detroit's flirtation with diesel during the 1970s, which left behind a trail of lemons such as an ill-fated version of the Oldsmobile Cutlass."
"To sell skeptical Americans, Honda may borrow a page from its British marketing handbook. The carmaker introduced diesel-powered cars there in 2004 with an award-winning 90-second animated TV spot. The ad shows bunnies, flowers, and rainbows destroying smelly diesel engines as Garrison Keillor, host of National Public Radio's A Prairie Home Companion, croons a tune about "positive hate."
I just can't see this changing minds on this side of the pond.
The TV spot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXf5UUnLzwQ |
|
|
| N_Jay |
I would bet that 5 years from now, diesels outsell hybrids.
(Unless the Dem/Libs write some more hybrid favoring legislation) |
|
|
| robrecht |
quote:
Originally posted by jdeanski
"To sell skeptical Americans, Honda may borrow a page from its British marketing handbook. The carmaker introduced diesel-powered cars there in 2004 with an award-winning 90-second animated TV spot. The ad shows bunnies, flowers, and rainbows destroying smelly diesel engines as Garrison Keillor, host of National Public Radio's A Prairie Home Companion, croons a tune about "positive hate."
I just can't see this changing minds on this side of the pond.
The TV spot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXf5UUnLzwQ
What a bizarre ad! I suppose it sticks in your mind and makes you think a little bit. |
|
|
| robrecht |
quote:
Originally posted by jay
With the eye-popping price of deisel in this country (regularly 50 cents more a gallon), and the old myth drawbacks to overcome, where's the threat? I wouldn't take a diesel Chevette if you paid me to take it off your hands, no matter what Joe Isuzu said!:1:
Why is Diesel so much more? In the past, it was more a function of demand and distribution decisions, and in fact was less expensive to produce than gasoline, but price at the pump was not a function of production costs. Are the newer low sulfer Diesel fuels much more expensive to produce? Or is it still more a matter of market dynamics?
BTW, I wouldn't want to drive my old Diesel Rabbit again, but I wouldn't complain about its 60 mpg highway economy, and that was with 1979 technology. |
|
|
| krygny |
quote:
Originally posted by jdeanski
...
Americans of a certain age haven't forgotten Detroit's flirtation with diesel during the 1970s,
...
You mean slapping different heads on a gasoline engine and calling it a diesel? :19: That was GM, they're still irrelevant and everyone knows it. The stinky-noisy perception aside, I don't think there's any fundamental aversion to diesels in the US. I mean, it's not like trying to get us to watch soccer (which will never happen). |
|
|
| beer4799 |
After being in the UK this summer, I can tell you that I was in several diesel vehicles and you would be hard pressed to detect it. Smooth and steady..They have come a long way since the last push here is the States..
Also, I think Isuzu may be the largest builder of diesel truck engines around. Perhaps they could license their technology since they seem to be out of the car business in the US......Cheers!:cool: |
|
|
| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by robrecht
Why is Diesel so much more? In the past, it was more a function of demand and distribution decisions, and in fact was less expensive to produce than gasoline, but price at the pump was not a function of production costs. Are the newer low sulfer Diesel fuels much more expensive to produce? Or is it still more a matter of market dynamics?
OK. One more time for our good friend. (See, I did not call him slow this time)
Production, distribution, and sales costs ARE part of what make up "Market Dynamics", but are only part.
The market cost of a successful market is made up of both cost and demand driven factors.
To try to separate them will stop you from even seeing the elegant simplicity of a market at work (the invisible hand). |
|
|
| robrecht |
quote:
Originally posted by N_Jay
OK. One more time for our good friend. (See, I did not call him slow this time)
Production, distribution, and sales costs ARE part of what make up "Market Dynamics", but are only part.
The market cost of a successful market is made up of both cost and demand driven factors.
To try to separate them will stop you from even seeing the elegant simplicity of a market at work (the invisible hand).
I think you misunderstood my question so I'll simplify: How much of the current high price of Diesel fuel is directly attibutable to increased costs of production of low sulfer fuel? |
|
|
| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by robrecht
I think you misunderstood my question so I'll simplify: How much of the current high price of Diesel fuel is directly attibutable to increased costs of production of low sulfer fuel?
If you were the production manager for a refinery you would have a good idea, but even there you would probably have trouble getting to a simple answer due to applied overhead and other allocated costs. |
|
|
| jdeanski |
quote:
Originally posted by robrecht
I think you misunderstood my question so I'll simplify: How much of the current high price of Diesel fuel is directly attibutable to increased costs of production of low sulfer fuel?
................and what will happen to the price of diesel if demand heats up, won't it go up too? |
|
|
| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by jdeanski
................and what will happen to the price of diesel if demand heats up, won't it go up too?
Yes it will. Especially during the transition period until the refineries have transitioned.
However if the transition to diesel takes our total consumption down it will lower crude prices (some marginal amount). |
|
|
| rocky |
If I recall my middle school oil refinery chart correctly diesel breaks out at a lower level than gasoline in a refinery.
It will take 5 years for there to be a major diesel personal auto marketplace. |
|
|
| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by rocky
If I recall my middle school oil refinery chart correctly diesel breaks out at a lower level than gasoline in a refinery.
Yep, but they can tune the process to get different amounts of each.
quote:
Originally posted by rocky It will take 5 years for there to be a major diesel personal auto marketplace. [/B]
What do you call "major"? |
|
|
| krygny |
quote:
Originally posted by jdeanski
................and what will happen to the price of diesel if demand heats up, won't it go up too?
The difference in the costs of production of most fuels (e.g., gasoline, diesel, heating oil, kerosene, etc.) is fairly negligible compared to market forces. If you see a petroleum product much cheaper [or much more expensive] than the others, it usually means they've produced too much [or too little] in the near term.
Ah, but you can run a diesel on almost anything. Ah, but then again, not all fuels have the same amount of energy per gallon. Just because gasoline is 30¢ less /gal than diesel, doesn't make it cheaper. |
|
|
| OB3 |
| after this thread, i think i will just get an H1 |
|
|
| krygny |
quote:
Originally posted by OB3
after this thread, i think i will just get an H1
... WITH A DIESEL!! :D
(I think they're discontinued. Thus, ending another pointless strategic journey by GM.) |
|
|
| OB3 |
quote:
Originally posted by krygny
... WITH A DIESEL!! :D
(I think they're discontinued. Thus, ending another pointless strategic journey by GM.)
Maybe one with genuine bald eagle feathered dashboard and baby seal leather seats also... If i am going to kill the environment, I might as well go all the way
:20: |
|
|
| krygny |
quote:
Originally posted by OB3
Maybe one with genuine bald eagle feathered dashboard and baby seal leather seats also... If i am going to kill the environment, I might as well go all the way
:20:
Or, just get yourself a ...
CANYONERO!!
Can you name the truck with four wheel drive,
Smells like a steak, and seats thirty five?
Canyonero! Canyonero!
Well, it goes real slow with the hammer down
It's the country-fried truck endorsed by a clown
Canyonero! Canyonero!
Hey, hey!
Twelve yards long, two lanes wide,
Sixty five tons of American pride!
Canyonero! Canyonero!
Top of the line in utility sports,
Unexplained fires are a matter for the courts!
Canyonero! Canyonero!
She blinds everybody with her super high beams
She's a squirrel-squashin', deer-smackin' drivin' machine
Canyonero! Canyonero! Canyonero!
Whoa, Canyonero! Whoa! |
|
|
|
