| Litemike |
| Besides the mm, what are you guys rotating at? Are you doing it yourself w/ the oem jack and donut? I did minr this way last time, but it was scketchy, thinking about blocking up the jack and donut. I suffer from cant pay a guy for something I can do syndrome CPFSICDS |
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| A6Pilot |
I went down to Walmart and bought a GM scissors jack that is exactly like the Honda jack for about $10-$12. I also back up the jacks with a set of jack stands. Now I can swap the tires on one side of the car, without using the donut spare. Rotating the tires now takes less than 15 minutes, even using a torque wrench to tighten the lugs. I can't even drive to Discount Tire in that amount of time.
I rotate every 20,000 miles. |
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| pmcsurf1 |
| I do mine every 5000 miles... same time I change the oil. |
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| N_Jay |
Every oil change is great but maybe a bit excessive. (3000 to 7000)
Every other 7000 to 15000 miles should be OK.
20,000 is getting a bit long |
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| andyschneider |
Combined almost 70K miles across 2 Pilots - rotate every 5k miles - fronts to rear, rears crossed to front - and the tires wear indefinitely. Michelin LTX are the tires, and any longer than 5K and you get feathering on the front tires - so frequent rotation in the "modified-X" pattern noted above gives you the longest life of all 4 tires, and the best overall wear...
I rotate in my driveway using the old donut spare (I have a full-sized spare under the rear). I then start at LR, put the donut spare on, then work around the car to RF, RR, LF, then back to LR and I'm done. I don't mess with scissor jacks - I have 2 3-ton jacks in the garage. One of them is made for SUV's and has a higher lift point - but even then it's tough to get the Pilot far enuf into the air to jack at more than a single point...
andy |
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| colorider |
quote:
Originally posted by pmcsurf1
I do mine every 5000 miles... same time I change the oil.
This is what I do as well - or simply trade for a new car..........
:2: :2: :2: |
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| jay |
quote:
Originally posted by colorider
This is what I do as well - or simply trade for a new car..........
:2: :2: :2:
+1:D |
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| A6Pilot |
quote:
Originally posted by andyschneider
Combined almost 70K miles across 2 Pilots - rotate every 5k miles - fronts to rear, rears crossed to front - and the tires wear indefinitely.
andy
With this kind of logic, if you rotate every 1,000, the tires would never wear out!
Let's face it, if the car were perfectly aligned, and the tires wore at the same rate, (front to rear, side to side) tire rotation would not be necessary. The reason you rotate tires is to average out uneven tire wear. The idea is to wear the tread evenly, one tire to the others, throughout the life of the tire set. My car tends to wear the front tires faster than the back tires. So far, my wheel alignment is darn near perfect, judging by the wear pattern. That's why I rotate at 20,000 miles. I closely watch and log tread depth, and it looks like my tires will be near replacement by 70,000 miles, or so. With my tire rotation strategy, I will have only rotated the set 3 times. If I rotated every 5,000 miles I would have rotated the set 13 times to get to the same 70,000 miles!
Rotating more often will not reduce tire wear, it just merely averages out unsymmetrical wear. Think about it: I could rotate every 50 miles, and that wouldn't change anything, in so far as set longevity is concerned.
The reason you observe feathering tires, if you extend the rotation interval, is that you can see the effect of tire misalignment more easily. The tires are feathering not as a result of an extended rotation interval, but because they are scrubbing (poor toe settings, see here.)
Proper tire inflation, balance, alignment, and weight distribution are key to tire longevity. Tire rotation will make the set of tires last longer, only if there is uneven wear in the set.
Again, the advantage of cross tire rotation, as practiced by Andy, is to balance uneven tire wear, side to side, due to gross misalignment. However, modern suspension systems are so robust and true, that alignment problems common in legacy cars, are rare in today's designs. Tire manufactures have taken notice. In fact, many tires designed for today's daily drivers are placarded against cross rotation. For example, the Michelin Hydro Edge must not be cross rotated. BTW, the Hydro Edge is designed for 90,000 miles, it's quiet, and superb in both rain and snow. |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by A6Pilot
Let's face it, if the car were perfectly aligned, and the tires wore at the same rate, (front to rear, side to side) tire rotation would not be necessary.
Except the front tires wear the edges, especially the outer edge more and the rear wear the inner edge slightly more.
The right side tends to take slightly more abuse from potholes and other impacts and the left usually takes slightly more weight (unless you always drive with two people.
THEREFORE even with PERFECT Alignment, balance, and inflation you can not get perfectly even wear.
Rotating often enough to balance things out DOES extend the useful life of the set of tires.
Every 20,000 miles IS NOT often enough. |
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| A6Pilot |
quote:
Originally posted by N_Jay
Every 20,000 miles IS NOT often enough.
Maybe not on your car, N-Jay, but it's worked great for me for a long time. With all due respect, be careful with those sweeping capitalized statements, as they tend to be a bit far reaching.
The idea here is to have all the tires worn down in the same fashion, and by the same amount, when it comes time to replace them. If that takes 20 rotations, or 3 (depending on your personal situation, road conditions, etc.), so be it. |
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| colorider |
quote:
Originally posted by A6Pilot
If that takes 20 rotations, or 3 (depending on your personal situation, road conditions, etc.), so be it.
Agree. For instance if I drove I-70 across Kansas every day, I would certainly have a different wear pattern than if I drove the "Peak-to-Peak" every day............. (there's also a huge fun-factor difference too)
:D |
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| andyschneider |
quote:
Originally posted by A6Pilot
Maybe not on your car, N-Jay, but it's worked great for me for a long time. With all due respect, be careful with those sweeping capitalized statements, as they tend to be a bit far reaching.
The idea here is to have all the tires worn down in the same fashion, and by the same amount, when it comes time to replace them. If that takes 20 rotations, or 3 (depending on your personal situation, road conditions, etc.), so be it.
OK - so to your first reply - if you read my post thinking that infinite rotations meant you'd never need to buy another tire, then you disappont me. The point of my post was that regular rotations would mean equal and consistent wear for all 4 tires throughout their lifetime. And for me, when they hit 6/32" inch of tread, they're gone.
Now, to this point in the reply above. I went back and looked at my notes for the past 6 vehicles I've owned - 2 Pilots, 1 Accord, 1 Civic, 1 Buick Regal, and the current Ford Freestyle. Every single one of them had what I call 'feathering" on the front tires by the time you hit 5k miles. Michelins. Pirelli's, Bridgestones, Nokians, Coopers. Every single one. What is "feathering"? Go to the front tire, put your hand on the front tire, and brush the palm from the front of the car to the back on the top of the tire. Notice the high points on the front-facing edge of the tread blocks? That's feathering - caused by the MacPhearson strut suspension. Perfect alignment results in this just due to the steering geometry. Rotating front to back does nothing to overcome this feathering, since the rotation direction is the same, and you never equalize this wear. A rotation that causes an X-rotation (either normal or modified pattern) reverses the rotation and flattens the wear. If you have a directional tire, then there's not a lot you can do.
If you have no feathering, congrats. But perhaps your "normal wear" is my "feathering" - and I won't allow that sort of wear on a set of tires I spend bucks on.. 20k rotations mean you replace the front tires twice as often as the rears, and they start to get pretty noisy by that rotation timeframe.....
andy |
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| pmcsurf1 |
I guess I’m not as organized as some of you. At 5000 I change the oil and rotate the tires so I forget if it's a LOF and tires or is it just LOF?!? I don't mind doing it... it only takes 20-30 mins. I also take clean the wheels when I rotate. That gets all the brake dust off from the insides. I use 4 jack stands and a floor jack. I also get to use my impact wrench and make noises like I'm at the Daytona 500. (Sometimes I wear my son's bmx helmet and a jump suite to really get the feeling. My neighbors all gather round and watch.)
A6pilot, I'm very happy rotating my tires at 5k and it sounds like you're very happy rotating them at 20k.
God bless America. |
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| jay |
| But when the tires do wear out, can they be recycled into synthetic oil?:D |
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| jay |
quote:
Originally posted by pmcsurf1
huh?
It's my sick humor. If you hang around enough car forums, you note that the big debate, that occurs in multiple threads over time, is about using regular versus synthetic oil, and the oil change interval.
This is the first rotation debate I recall, on any car forum I frequent, but it appears headed in the same general direction as the oil threads. :p |
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| sblvro |
quote:
Originally posted by jay
It's my sick humor. If you hang around enough car forums, you note that the big debate, that occurs in multiple threads over time, is about using regular versus synthetic oil, and the oil change interval.
This is the first rotation debate I recall, on any car forum I frequent, but it appears headed in the same general direction as the oil threads. :p
:2: here goes, I rotate my tires every 15,000 miles because that is also my oil change interval using Mobil 1 synthetic oil extended performance:4:
I have 117,000 miles already:1: |
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| colorider |
quote:
Originally posted by jay
This is the first rotation debate I recall, on any car forum I frequent, but it appears headed in the same general direction as the oil threads. :p
Seems like we have a couple before, but it's been a while. We need a good tire pressure thread again soon as well!!!!
:eek: |
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| Litemike |
| Sears has a 2 1/4 ton CRAPSMAN floor jack on sale for $20. I am thinking this will work pretty good - 15" max lift enough? Anybody have one? |
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| dustino8 |
quote:
Originally posted by Litemike
Sears has a 2 1/4 ton CRAPSMAN floor jack on sale for $20. I am thinking this will work pretty good - 15" max lift enough? Anybody have one?
15" won't be enough. I had a 2.5 ton with 14" lift and it was way short. I bought a 3 ton michelin on sale with 21" lift and it works great. Maybe someone else will chime in on the lift requirement. |
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| pmcsurf1 |
| I'm sure that would work fine. If it's not high enough just add a couple pieces of 2x4 between the truck and the jack. |
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| colorider |
quote:
Originally posted by pmcsurf1
I'm sure that would work fine. If it's not high enough just add a couple pieces of 2x4 between the truck and the jack.
You're not serious are you? Having a vehicle fall off a jack is NOT a pretty picture (and can be deadly).
:( |
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| pmcsurf1 |
colorider... my bad. i could see how people might misconstrue what i said. You put the 2x4's on their flat sides not the other way.
Thanks for the heads up colorider. |
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| colorider |
quote:
Originally posted by pmcsurf1
colorider... my bad. i could see how people might misconstrue what i said. You put the 2x4's on their flat sides not the other way.
Thanks for the heads up colorider.
I suppose one 2x4 on it's flat side would still be pretty stable, but two or more is a bit spooky for my taste. I think I would opt for 2x6's if stacking.
Better yet - use a jack that has sufficient lift!!! :)
I've done some pretty unsafe (stupid) stuff in my life and now that I'm older, I just think "what if" a lot more!!! :27: |
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| andyschneider |
quote:
Originally posted by pmcsurf1
colorider... my bad. i could see how people might misconstrue what i said. You put the 2x4's on their flat sides not the other way.
Thanks for the heads up colorider.
this is still dangerous, as I've had a 2x4 split with the grain once trying this. Maybe some pure hardwood blocks might be OK - but I'd certainly avoid run-of-the-mill 2x4's....
I bought an SUV-specific floor jack from Sears - it's the kind that has the cradle already up several inches, and then goes up quickly with the first push of the handle to meet the location of where you'll start jacking. I think it goes up to 21 inches at it's max point. but I can say that with the Pilot, jacking at the notch on the body welds, that there's plenty of room to continue jacking after the wheels are off the ground (just did it last weekend). I don't trust scissor jacks except in an emergency - floor jacks are the only way to go...
andy |
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| jay |
| This thread's really been jacked now!:D |
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| colorider |
quote:
Originally posted by jay
This thread's really been jacked now!:D
About here? |
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| jestmaty |
| That looks like a chair leaning back, about to fall over... |
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| pmcsurf1 |
| i don't know how "dangerous" this is. I don't lay under the truck when i rotate tires. Come on. If we really want to be "safe" we should take it to the dealer and stand behind the little plastic chain. I'd take a 2 1/2 floor jack and a 2/4 over the manufactures scissor jack any day. |
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| andyschneider |
quote:
Originally posted by pmcsurf1
i don't know how "dangerous" this is. I don't lay under the truck when i rotate tires. Come on. If we really want to be "safe" we should take it to the dealer and stand behind the little plastic chain. I'd take a 2 1/2 floor jack and a 2/4 over the manufactures scissor jack any day.
Trust me - the first time you have a 2x4 split and the car drops just enough as you're putting a wheel on and you get hung up on the lugs - and you don't have enough height on the jack to get it back up, you'll have second thoughts about doing it. It's one of those "once it happens you don't forget it" moments... :D
andy |
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| william489 |
quote:
Originally posted by A6Pilot
I went down to Walmart and bought a GM scissors jack that is exactly like the Honda jack for about $10-$12. I also back up the jacks with a set of jack stands. Now I can swap the tires on one side of the car, without using the donut spare. Rotating the tires now takes less than 15 minutes, even using a torque wrench to tighten the lugs. I can't even drive to Discount Tire in that amount of time.
I rotate every 20,000 miles.
I just did my tire rotation with the spare. Are you using directional tires? If you use scissors jack, where do you put your jack stands, I thought the spot has already been used by the jack.
Many thanks. |
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| pmcsurf1 |
When changing my rear differential fluid this week end I saw a nice spot for a floor jack right behind the gear box in front of the spare. It's even labeled "jack." Put the floor jack there and you can get two wheels at once.
By the way, I rotated this weekend and tried the spare tire method. It took about the same time as jacking up all four tires and using jack stands. Plus I got a chance to clean the spare. :) |
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| william489 |
quote:
Originally posted by pmcsurf1
When changing my rear differential fluid this week end I saw a nice spot for a floor jack right behind the gear box in front of the spare. It's even labeled "jack." Put the floor jack there and you can get two wheels at once.
By the way, I rotated this weekend and tried the spare tire method. It took about the same time as jacking up all four tires and using jack stands. Plus I got a chance to clean the spare. :)
It is said never to jack up the car completely or support the car with only jack stands. This is not safe. But I guess experienced folks do this all the time...
When I did the tire rotation, I used the spare, and I used the steel beam close to wheel as the jack point, as my Sears jack has only 15 inch max lift, and after jacking up, I put the jack stands in the stock location. This works for me, and look pretty safe for me. |
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| jfmctlaw |
Used to spin a lot of wrenches and crawl around in the gravel driveway on my back a few decades ago, still like to play when I can....so I'm looking at my tires on my '07 pilot (40K mi) and I see those stupid tread wear bars....now I know the 'Discount' tire dealer won't give me the free rotation..."oh we can't rotate those...it's illegal" I know this is just a sales tool...
So I found your thread. I was looking for torgue specs, but I finally found that in my manual on changing a flat. I guess you 5K rotators will freak when you read this....but I also have to tell you I won't buy new tires until I see the belts ... :-) so I fully expect to get another 40k out of this set .
As for tire pressure, my thumb on a sidewall is good for +/- 3psi. I run mine at 50psi, great gas mileage and I don't see any tread wear issues. |
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