| sjlee |
Hi all,
A while back in another thread, I mentioned that I was going with the "normal" maintenance schedule on my 2005 Pilot. This means 7500 oil change intervals (OCIs).
Well, I changed the oil and filter last weekend and sent the used oil in to Blackstone Labs for analysis.
Here are the results. I made screenshots of the PDF that they emailed to me today.
The oil that was analyzed was from an oil change that the dealer did almost 7300 miles ago (when they did the 30k maintenance).
The oil (Super Pro Plus 5W-20 conventional) was from a "local" supplier (Plymouth Lubricants). Since I do my own oil changes periodically, I'm planning on doing another UOA with the oil I used (Chevron conventional). |
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| sjlee |
| Here's the rest of the report... |
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| sjlee |
It would appear that besides the TBN being low, the oil is in pretty good shape. I'm going to stick with at least one more 7500 mi OCI with an off-the-shelf conventional oil to see if there's any difference.
If I get the same results, I don't see any reason why I cannot continue with 7500 mi OCIs. |
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| whizmo |
Did they make a recommendation on whether your change interval was insufficient or could be extended?
On my 06, the MM continues to recommend changes at 4.8K which seems surprisingly short. I tend to fudge out to 5K or so, but my other car (a Mini S which I drive much harder) has a MM system which is recommending 13K+ (which I usually halve or change within a calendar year) and I can't believe that the Honda really needs oil changes 3x more often.
- Mark |
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| sjlee |
quote:
Originally posted by whizmo
Did they make a recommendation on whether your change interval was insufficient or could be extended?
On my 06, the MM continues to recommend changes at 4.8K which seems surprisingly short. I tend to fudge out to 5K or so, but my other car (a Mini S which I drive much harder) has a MM system which is recommending 13K+ (which I usually halve or change within a calendar year) and I can't believe that the Honda really needs oil changes 3x more often.
- Mark
Their recommendation was at the top of the first page...
"The TBN read 1.0 and this shows the oil was basically out of active additive and for this reason we don't think running this brand of oil longer is a good idea, but staying with at ~7,250 miles is okay."
What % is MM reading when you hit 4800 mi on your '06? I think it's safe to go down to 5% if you want to get more miles between oil changes. |
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| mfisher1967 |
Just an observation, but I feel you could do much better with Pennzoil Platinum. Based on numerous UOA's on the BITOG site, PP 5W-20 would most likely reduce wear metals in your UOA's by 40% to 50%. PP 5W-20 would likely have a TBN of ~3 after 7,500 miles as well.
I purchase quarts of PP from my local Wal-Mart for $4.97 each, meaning that a complete oil change with a Wix filter and new crush washer is typically around $33. Sure, I could buy conventional oil for $2 to $3 per quart, but I don't mind paying a little extra for better wear numbers in my UOA's. |
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| Armystrong |
quote:
Originally posted by mfisher1967
Just an observation, but I feel you could do much better with Pennzoil Platinum. Based on numerous UOA's on the BITOG site, PP 5W-20 would most likely reduce wear metals in your UOA's by 40% to 50%. PP 5W-20 would likely have a TBN of ~3 after 7,500 miles as well.
I purchase quarts of PP from my local Wal-Mart for $4.97 each, meaning that a complete oil change with a Wix filter and new crush washer is typically around $33. Sure, I could buy conventional oil for $2 to $3 per quart, but I don't mind paying a little extra for better wear numbers in my UOA's.
I second this recommendation, you will see better results with the Penzoilde Platinum that is recommended or in my case I use Mobil 1 5W20. Two excellent oils. Just a recommendation. You went as far as getting a UOA, so you care about your engine and how it is wearing, so why not spend the little bit more and know your UOA numbers will be improved by using a superior oil than what your using. Take Care. |
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| sjlee |
quote:
Originally posted by mfisher1967
Just an observation, but I feel you could do much better with Pennzoil Platinum. Based on numerous UOA's on the BITOG site, PP 5W-20 would most likely reduce wear metals in your UOA's by 40% to 50%. PP 5W-20 would likely have a TBN of ~3 after 7,500 miles as well.
I purchase quarts of PP from my local Wal-Mart for $4.97 each, meaning that a complete oil change with a Wix filter and new crush washer is typically around $33. Sure, I could buy conventional oil for $2 to $3 per quart, but I don't mind paying a little extra for better wear numbers in my UOA's.
I would hope that a fully synthetic that costs over twice as much would yield better UOA results than a conventional oil... but the real question is whether it translates into actual real-world benefits.
I don't plan on going farther than 7500 mi between oil changes, so I'm fine with the TBN being 1.
I also posted up my UOA on BITOG. From the feedback that I've received, it sounds like everyone thinks the oil performed well. In fact, I also compared it to another Pilot's UOA that used Mobil 1... and the wear numbers were similar.
I'm going to go another 7500 mi (approx) on the Chevron 5W-30 I just put in and get another UOA. I'm curious to see how an off-the-shelf bottle compares to the bulk oil the dealership uses.
Otherwise, I don't a compelling reason why I should switch to a full synthetic or more frequent OCIs. Blackstone seemed to think that the wear numbers were acceptable, as well as the feedback I received on BITOG. |
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| Armystrong |
Maybe I am missing something but the recommendation says:
"The TBN read 1.0, and this shows the oil was basically out of active additives and for this reason we don't think that running this brand of oil longer is a good idea."
To me this is telling you that the oil reached its protective properties before you got the UOA done. But what your telling me is that going 7500 miles with conventional oil is just a good a going 7500 miles with synthetic oil. Interesting to say the least.
Well each his own and I know you like your pilot or you wouldn't be getting an UOA done. You are merely weighing your options and that is just being proactive instead of taking others opinions on the matter. Props to you. I hope your trial period yields good results. Wether it is converntional or synthetic, you chose, I am sticking with what works for me and always has.
Best of luck and I wouldn't mind seeing your conventional oil UOA with a synthetic UAO with the same miles. That is the key, same mileage, from a Pilot. I will search here to see what I come up with. |
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| sjlee |
quote:
Originally posted by Armystrong
Maybe I am missing something but the recommendation says:
"The TBN read 1.0, and this shows the oil was basically out of active additives and for this reason we don't think that running this brand of oil longer is a good idea."
To me this is telling you that the oil reached its protective properties before you got the UOA done. But what your telling me is that going 7500 miles with conventional oil is just a good a going 7500 miles with synthetic oil. Interesting to say the least.
Well each his own and I know you like your pilot or you wouldn't be getting an UOA done. You are merely weighing your options and that is just being proactive instead of taking others opinions on the matter. Props to you. I hope your trial period yields good results. Wether it is converntional or synthetic, you chose, I am sticking with what works for me and always has.
Best of luck and I wouldn't mind seeing your conventional oil UOA with a synthetic UAO with the same miles. That is the key, same mileage, from a Pilot. I will search here to see what I come up with.
If Blackstone didn't think I should go this long with this oil, I would've expected them to say that. Instead, they said it was okay to go 7250 miles.
You're reading way too much into my post. I never said that going 7500 miles on conventional oil is just as good as going 7500 miles on synthetic. I simply pointed out that my wear numbers were not far off from other Pilot owners (on BITOG) who used Mobil 1 with the same OCI... granted their TBNs were higher, but like I said I'm not looking to go longer.
You do have a good idea, however. I too would like to see how full synthetic (or at least a blend) would perform with the same OCI. I might give one a try at the next oil change. |
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| gilberttribe |
| Thank you for posting your results. I was recently questioning whether a conventional oil would last 7.5K miles, and it did better than I expected. I'll be interested to see your next report as well. I continue to wonder if I'm wasting money using synthetic since I change every 7500 miles as dictated in the owner's manual. Based on the results, I can see why you would stick with conventional, and why others might consider synthetic beneficial. |
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| whizmo |
quote:
Originally posted by sjlee
Their recommendation was at the top of the first page...
"The TBN read 1.0 and this shows the oil was basically out of active additive and for this reason we don't think running this brand of oil longer is a good idea, but staying with at ~7,250 miles is okay."
What % is MM reading when you hit 4800 mi on your '06? I think it's safe to go down to 5% if you want to get more miles between oil changes.
Duh... not sure how I missed it, sorry.
My MM at around 4.8K is showing 0%. I typically change it in the next 500 miles or so, so I let it go negative a bit. I think it's "safe" to change it anywhere around 0% on either side - the thing is just an estimator and doesn't actually sense anything about the oil -- but I'm still surprised the interval is so short. I'm guessing it's algorithm must heavily weigh starts/stops as our driving tends to be short trips.
- Mark |
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| sjlee |
quote:
Originally posted by whizmo
Duh... not sure how I missed it, sorry.
My MM at around 4.8K is showing 0%. I typically change it in the next 500 miles or so, so I let it go negative a bit. I think it's "safe" to change it anywhere around 0% on either side - the thing is just an estimator and doesn't actually sense anything about the oil -- but I'm still surprised the interval is so short. I'm guessing it's algorithm must heavily weigh starts/stops as our driving tends to be short trips.
- Mark
Yes, I think short trips is one of many variables that the MM system uses to determine when you need to change the oil. |
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| mfisher1967 |
I think the risk in your plan lays in assuming that oil will always fare the same as long as you only drive a prescribed amount of miles between oil changes. This is not always the case, as weather, trip length and driving conditions will always impact oil life. You are clearly pushing non-synthetic oil to places it was never meant to be.
A $19 five-quart jug of Mobil One would have cost less than the price of the Blackstone UOA. If nothing else, use the Supertech synthetic from Walmart. I believe that the Supertech synthetic only costs ~$2 per quart.
Is the long term viability of your engine really worth saving $10 per oil change? By the way, a TBN of 1.0 indicates that ALL of the additives have been used up. Without additives, the acid content of the oil will increase without control. |
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| ctobio |
The numbers seem very similar to mine after 6700 miles on Mobil1, except for the TBN on mine being much higher (3.4), which is to be expected.
I'm currently running a test on my Passat running to 7500 (or higher) on German Castrol 0W30. At 5000 miles, my TBN was 5.9, which is very good. I'm going to send in a sample at 7500 and see where I am with that.
Granted, I have a 6.5 quart sump in that thing, and I burn about a quart every 2000 miles, which helps pump up that TBN number. |
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| sjlee |
quote:
Originally posted by mfisher1967
I think the risk in your plan lays in assuming that oil will always fare the same as long as you only drive a prescribed amount of miles between oil changes. This is not always the case, as weather, trip length and driving conditions will always impact oil life. You are clearly pushing non-synthetic oil to places it was never meant to be.
A $19 five-quart jug of Mobil One would have cost less than the price of the Blackstone UOA. If nothing else, use the Supertech synthetic from Walmart. I believe that the Supertech synthetic only costs ~$2 per quart.
Is the long term viability of your engine really worth saving $10 per oil change? By the way, a TBN of 1.0 indicates that ALL of the additives have been used up. Without additives, the acid content of the oil will increase without control.
Yes, I realize that if I just wanted to maximize the longevity of my engine with 7500 mi OCIs, I would just use synthetic and forget about doing UOAs.
But I wanted to see how well a conventional would hold up. From my first UOA, it would appear that the coventional oil did a pretty good job. Yes, the TBN was down to 1, but the wear numbers were on par with people who used full synthetics.
That being said, I'm running one more time with coventional oil (Chevron) to see if there's any difference. If the TBN is low again, I'll either consider doing more frequent OCIs or switch to a synthetic or blend.
BTW, this is an honest question... a TBN of 1 is considered "used up", but will the TBN ever go lower than 1? In other words, is a TBN of 1 just really low or does it actually mean that there are no additives left? |
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| beer4799 |
I ran the oil a lttle over 7K. Honda dealer uses Valvoline. It appears from report that 7000 to 7500 is a-ok for my Pilot usage. I don't think I could stretch it to 8K OCI and be comfortable doing it, however. Cool report!
: Honda makes nicely wearing engines and yours appears to be wearing just fine at 70,000
miles. The universal averages for wear metals found in the oil from this type of V-6 are based on a
5,700-mile oil change. Your oil was changed after 7,000 miles and wear metals were lower. We also found
37 ppm of sodium. It is likely an oil additive rather than coolant since wear looks good. The oil's TBN was
2.0, showing a little active additive left. When it reads 1.0, it's almost all gone. Try ~8,000 miles next time
and check back to establish wear trends. |
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| sjlee |
quote:
Originally posted by beer4799
I ran the oil a lttle over 7K. Honda dealer uses Valvoline. It appears from report that 7000 to 7500 is a-ok for my Pilot usage. I don't think I could stretch it to 8K OCI and be comfortable doing it, however. Cool report!
: Honda makes nicely wearing engines and yours appears to be wearing just fine at 70,000
miles. The universal averages for wear metals found in the oil from this type of V-6 are based on a
5,700-mile oil change. Your oil was changed after 7,000 miles and wear metals were lower. We also found
37 ppm of sodium. It is likely an oil additive rather than coolant since wear looks good. The oil's TBN was
2.0, showing a little active additive left. When it reads 1.0, it's almost all gone. Try ~8,000 miles next time
and check back to establish wear trends.
Thanks for sharing. You don't say, but is this conventional oil? Could you upload your report to share? |
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| rocky |
| Dumb question, whats TBN stand for and what does it do to help? |
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| sjlee |
quote:
Originally posted by rocky
Dumb question, whats TBN stand for and what does it do to help?
Total Base Number
"In short, a TBN (total base number) measures the amount of active additive left in a sample of oil. The TBN is useful for people who want to extend their oil usage far beyond the normal range."
"The TBN measures the total basedity of an engine oil; that is, how much base (as in, a base vs. an acid) additive is in the oil to offset the deleterious effects of acids coming into the oil from combustion and other sources."
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/do_i_need_a_tbn_.html |
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