| harley909 |
Well I am concerned over this one.
Pulled my boat for the first time today with my 2003 Pilot. Boat and trailer weight about 2000lbs.
Have hitch and transmission cooler installed.
approx 2000km since VTM Fluid change by Dealer
got home and as I was backing boat in I could hear clunking from rear end when I turned and backed up. Thought it was the boat trailer, but nope it's coming from the rear end for sure.
unhooked and parked boat and took pilot for a ride. All ok except when I turn right it chatters from the rear end, like it's binding. Does it a we bit when turning tight left turns. No sign of fluid leak at all, the rear end is fairly warm to the touch.
Could I be lucky enough to do a vtm4 change to fix the problem?
any comments would be appreciated. |
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| humanoid |
| It wouldn't hurt to do it again. Methinks maybe the dealer never performed the VTM service in the first place. |
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| harley909 |
so is there a chance that a fluid change will solve the problem? I mean will the probelm go away?
I never got a vtm4 light or any warning...just the noise. |
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| humanoid |
| It may or may not, I really can't say for sure. I'm just saying give it a try, it couldn't hurt anything, right? |
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| harley909 |
wondering if anyone has had the rear end go in their pilot...?
what happened? |
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| MSTEWART |
| I had this same thing happen to me in my Pilot about a month ago. I was hauling a 1500lb trailer and some wood for a deck and I noticed after a sharp right turn the rear end would clunk. I about had a heart attack when this happened. I went to the dealer and they told me to replace the VTM fluid and then do it 3 times (once a week) to flush the rear end. I changed it one time and it totally fixed the problem. I also did the tranny fluid while I was changing the VTM fluid. This is really easy to do and I'm sure that there is a post about how to do it on here. |
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| harley909 |
ok well that's a bit of a relief.
i have changed my vtm4 fluid before but the ast time I was in a hurry so i paid the dealer to do it. i am super suspicious now that they did not do it.
i will give it a try tomorrow.
so what is with these pilots that you can't haul anything without changing the vtm4 fluid after??
seems a bit odd |
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| MSTEWART |
| I have hauled quite a bit with mine without any problems until that happened. My Pilot has 97K and I bought it with 60K. The dealer told me that since this vehicle was a leased vehicle that it probably had never been changed. I am assuming that this is why the rear end started clunking. The dealer told me to change it every 15K to avoid any problems. A new one costs about $2,500 installed... |
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| harley909 |
well this is an interesting story worth sharing.
i went to the honda dealer and got some VTM4 fluid and did the change. When I drove the Pilot over to get the fluid (just to warm it up before the change) I seriously had doubts that it was going to work. The rear end was shuddering and binding so bad it thought I would never make the 3 block drive there. I was absolutely brutal, worse than before I parked it yesterday.
I got home and did the change and it was obvious, water in the VTM4. It was pink and overfull because it poured out from the fill hole as soon as I opened it up, had the consistency of water.
I did the change and took it for a drive. Dramatic improvement but still binding and shuttering really bad when I pushed on the gas around any corner, left or right.
I drove back to the Honda dealer with my jug of pink fluid and showed the Service Manager. He called a mechanic who wasn't really too shocked. The Mechanic ended up going for a ride with me to see it for himself. He said he had seen this before, mainly on CRV's, but not a Pilot. He suggested I change the fluid again. I had my doubts. We went back to the Dealership and he ran off a Bulletin and told me "I am not supposed to do this but here..."
WELL WELL WELL seems this is nothing new to HONDA. It is a crystal clear problem with water getting into the rear end via the vent tube breather if the rear end gets submerged. The Mechanic suggested I follow the Repair Procedure so off I went.
I ended up changing the VTM4 fluid one more time (2 in total) and the problem went away 100%. All is well. After $80 in VTM4 fluid, a sleepless night and 3 hours of fooling around it is back to normal.
Turns out the electromagnetic rear end clutches are really really sensitive to moisture...makes them grab and not let go when there is load...I suppose a lot like when you let the VTM4 fluid go too long and it gets old or contaminated.
I am extremely thankful to the Mechanic for providing this info as I was facing a $2500 bill for a new rear end as far as I was concerned. In fact the Service Manager was working on the quote.
The problem I now have is how am I going to haul and launch my boat?
I am going to have a really good look at that vent line and see if I can add a piece of hose to it to extend it up really high into a wheelwell where it will never get submerged.
I think HONDA should make an amendment to the Owners Manual for the Pilot to advise Owners that if the rear end is going to be submerged in water (ie to launch a boat) that it is not suitable for that unless the vent line is changed or adapted.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p184/harley909/Honda_III-04-05VTM4_Page_1.jpg[/IMG]]
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p184/harley909/Honda_III-04-05VTM4_Page_2.jpg[/IMG]] |
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| th10000 |
WELL WELL WELL seems this is nothing new to HONDA. It is a crystal clear problem with water getting into the rear end via the vent tube breather if the rear end gets submerged.
This is nothing new to ANY manufacturer or specific to the Pilot. All clutch type limited diffs on truck based 4x4s used a "friction modifier" in the fluid to allow clutch slippage. If the fluid is not changed or gets water in it, the clutches chatter. It goes away with proper fluid. As to the water getting in this is also true of all diffs. The vent is usually not much higher than the top of the diff case and if you ever submerge your diff you should ALWAYS change the fluid in case water got in.
I had a real 4x4, '75 Frod Bronco with a 302 and limited slip diffs, and both your issues (chattering and water) applied to it as well. |
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| harley909 |
th10000,
Well I don't see anything in the Honda Owners manual about it.
I have had a few vehicles which I used to launch my boats over the years and I have never had this type of problem before.
Why is it the Honda Mechanic has to hand this out like it is top secret anyways?
As it turns out I basically bought my Pilot to replace my Chevy truck that I used to pull my boat with. Had I of known that a 5 minute dip in the lake up to the back bumper would cause such a problem I would have thought twice about it. I did a lot of reading about the Pilot before I bought it to make sure it was suitable for what I intended to use it for. So far the whole issue of the VTM4 fluid and the required changes every 15k has been a sore point with me.
I have owned my Pilot for less than a year and have drove it for about 22,000 km and have already changed the VTM4 fluid 4 times and it probably could use a 5th...pretty expensive when you figure out.
After all that I still have to find a way to launch my boat without spending $40 to change the VTM4 fluid each time.
Thanks for the comments they were useful to me. |
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| harley909 |
Thank You Humanoid for the useful info.
I will be doing this mod very soon. |
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| th10000 |
Well I don't see anything in the Honda Owners manual about it.
Harley909,
Maybe you missed the quote below in the owners manual. Yes, its not in the "towing" section, but it applies to driving in ANY water. Water above the axles can get into and damage the wheel bearings and get in the diff of ANY vehicle - thats why Honda put the warning in the manual.
No vehicle is designed to back the "lake up to the rear bumper" and I can guarantee that your Chevy had water in its diff. The only reason it didn't begin to chatter was probably that is was open and not a limited slip as I previously said.
2006 Owners Manual
Before driving through water, stop,
get out if necessary, and make sure
that:
The water is not deep enough to
cover your wheel hubs, axles, or
exhaust pipe. You could stall and
not be able to restart your engine.
The water can also damage
important vehicle components. |
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| harley909 |
th10000,
I will have to go through my 2003 Owners Manual and look for that clause. It certainly didn't stand out to me. It does not exactly spell out the risk of ingesting water into the rear end and contaminating the VTM4 fluid like the Service Bulletin spelled out so clearly. The Bulletin that "joe public" does not have ready access to, that is.
From all accounts (my direct experience that is) the Pilot is not suitable for launching a boat if you have to go into the water up to the axles without some type of modification to the rear end vent line. Not many boats that I know of that can be launched that shallow.
I would also be concerned if I happen to run into a condition where the road was flooded enough that I had to drive with the axles submerged (which could happen actually).
If you ask me Honda should offer a kit to extend the rear end vent. It's no different that offering the transmission cooler/power steering cooler kits for towing.
In my case I will figure out a way to do it myself as I NEED to use the Pilot to launch my boat and I am not going to change the VTM4 every time I do that.
Be interesting to see what the "competition" has in their Owners Manual (Toyota Highlander/Trailerblazer/Murano/etc) |
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| ejthomp |
quote:
Originally posted by harley909
th10000,
From all accounts (my direct experience that is) the Pilot is not suitable for launching a boat if you have to go into the water up to the axles without some type of modification to the rear end vent line. Not many boats that I know of that can be launched that shallow.
WOW!!!!!
Very interesting thread! I'm glad I happened to read this. I launch my boat all the time but I've never had the problems you describe. And I usually launch in saltwater so the potential for trouble is greater.
My question to you is: Why do you have to back all the way into the water to launch your boat?
When I launch my 2,000 lb, 15' Arima, I don't even get the Pilot's tires wet! I back the boat and trailer in until just the axle of the trailer is submerged, stop, and push my boat off. I don't even get my feet wet when stand back by the winch and I push the boat off.
Now my trailer is a roller-style trailer so I don't need my boat to float off the trailer. I just disconnect the winch strap and safety chain, give it a little push, and it rolls off into the water. Pulling out of the water is just as easy. I can power on or pull it up with the winch.
So, I'm guessing that you have a fairly large boat on a bunk style trailer and you launch at a shallow ramp that requires you to back way in the water before your boat floats off the trailer. Is that right?
Only a couple suggestions... can you possibly launch without backing in so deep? How about a different launch with a steeper ramp (ie..gets deeper, quicker so you don't need to back in so deep)? Need a new boat trailer soon? A roller trailer might be easier.
Anyway, thanks for sharing this info. Sooner or later I may find myself in a position where I need to dunk the axle. I'll remember this and change the VTM fluid afterwards! |
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| harley909 |
I have an 18ft boat c/w 170hp i/o. It is a open bow. I have the roller type trailer too. Where I am, the boat launch is very shallow and I have to drive into the water so that even my front tires are in. There are no other launches here that are any different really. I am so used to it I never really considered that others are steep enough to avoid dunking the vehicle in to the bumper to launch.
I am thinking it is very easy to put an extension on the vent so I can avoid the problem in the future. I will post the results so that others can decide if they want to do the same thing. |
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| ejthomp |
quote:
Originally posted by harley909
Where I am, the boat launch is very shallow and I have to drive into the water so that even my front tires are in. There are no other launches here that are any different really. I am so used to it I never really considered that others are steep enough to avoid dunking the vehicle in to the bumper to launch.
Strange.... I guess we build our ramps different up here in the Pacific Northwest. I fish often and travel around to do it, so I've probably launched from 50 different boat launches and the only time I can think of where I had to back even the rear wheels into the water was one time when I launched off an unimproved launch on the beach.
I'm guessing that the Honda Pilot engineers had our style of boat ramps in mind when they studied this issue! |
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| ejthomp |
One other thing....
Does anyone know if this has been changed on the later model Pilots? I'll check out my 2008 and find out where the vent is. Just to be safe, I'll probably do this modification too. It will be nice to know that the darn thing can at least run through a deep mud puddle!!! We do get plenty of those here in the Pacific Northwest!:D |
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| ejthomp |
One last thing....
Because you have a roller trailer, you might be surprised by how little of water you really need to launch and retrieve. Have you ever experimented? I've been caught by low tides and found that I can launch and retrieve in less than 12" of water. Of course this requires wading in the water to push the boat around because the motor needs to be tilted up.
With an I/O you will need more water depth, but still you might want to experiment a bit to see just how much water you need. Just about any recreational boat can float in 16" of water. With my boat and trailer I know that once the axle of my trailer is covered, I can make it work. I usually go a little deeper so the boat slides on easier, but in a pinch the boat will load just fine.
I've watched people with large boats on bunk trailers back their pickup over the wheels to get the boat to float off the trailer. I watch that and think, "Giving a saltwater bath to a $40k pickup, just can't be good for it." |
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| ejthomp |
quote:
Originally posted by harley909
I have an 18ft boat c/w 170hp i/o. It is a open bow. I have the roller type trailer too.
Also....that combo is over 3,000 pounds.... probably closer to 3,500.... It might be hard to believe, but next time you are heading to the lake, loaded for the weekend, pull off at a truck scale (the ones that appear closed are still functioning, just pull onto the scale and look around for the display, they leave them on so you can use them during off hours)....you'll be surprised. |
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| harley909 |
when i bought it about 3 yrs ago it was weighed for shipment. tipped the toledo at 1945lbs. Perhaps they were wrong?
I figured by the time it was loaded with gas and stuff it would be 2500lbs. You think it would be 1000lbs more than that?
The 170hp is a 4 cylinder |
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| ejthomp |
Take it to a scale....... Maybe I'm wrong, but I'll accept that when I see the scale reading.
When you say it was weighed 1,945 lbs for shipment.... What exactly was weighed? Maybe just the dry boat? Add 600 lbs for the trailer, and then gas, battery, anchor and every other little add-on. Then throw in a couple coolers filled with ice and beverages, some camping gear, etc... and you'll be surprised.
My buddy has an 18' open bow with a 120hp 2-stroke outboard....He estimated no more than 2500 lbs.....It scaled at 3200 lbs. Another guy was blowing tires on his trailer. He said there was NO WAY his boat weighed more than 3,500 lbs ..... he scaled 4,500 lbs:eek: :eek:
My little boat supposedly ships dry from the factory at 900 lbs....add motors, gas, fishing gear, trailer, camping gear.... I just scaled 2,480 lbs on my July 4th camping trip!
When someone says to me; "My boat & trailer weigh XXXX." My first question is always, "Have you personally put it on a scale?" If not, add a minimum of 500 lbs to their heaviest guess! |
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| harley909 |
the boat and trailer were loaded into a 53ft semi trailer van and hauled. The entire semi and trailer with the boat inside it were weighed and the rated weight of the semi and 53ft trailer were subtracted the get the net weight of the hauled goods. that was 1945lbs. that's what the shipping docs indicated. i certainly never witnessed it and it was without fuel and all the other "stuff". I know one thing, I can fairly easily push the boat around on the trailer and the hitch weight is pretty light as I can lift it pretty easy. I sure can't see the trailer weighing 600lbs as I am sure 2 guys could lift it from either side empty.
i will weigh it some day to see. |
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