| krygny |
Assumptions:
- 15 MPG increase in mileage.
- Similar performance, maintenance costs, and vehicle life.
Example: If you drive 20,000 miles per year and you currently get 20 mpg, you use 1,000 gallons. At $1.50/gal. that's $1500. If you got 35 mpg, you'd use 571 gallons. That's $857; a savings of $643.
Of course, there are the green aspects too. |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by krygny
Assumptions:
- 15 MPG increase in mileage.
- Similar performance, maintenance costs, and vehicle life.
Example: If you drive 20,000 miles per year and you currently get 20 mpg, you use 1,000 gallons. At $1.50/gal. that's $1500. If you got 35 mpg, you'd use 571 gallons. That's $857; a savings of $643.
Of course, there are the green aspects too.
And the non-green aspects of the batteries!:eek::eek:
Also I would think the 15MPG gain is a bit high. :confused:
Using the Civic Hybrid as a model I would expect a 1.35 to 1.5 improvement factor which will only get you 7 to 10 MPG gain.:eek:
Also using the Civic Hybrid as a model you WILL NOT get the same performance, or maintenance costs. :3:
Anything can sound good with bad assumptions. Just read Wired maganzine!:2: :2: :2: |
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| krygny |
quote:
Originally posted by N_Jay
...
Anything can sound good with bad assumptions. Just read Wired maganzine!:2: :2: :2:
Are you referring to a particular article, or are you talking about Wired magazine, in general? I only read it occasionally. |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by krygny
Are you referring to a particular article, or are you talking about Wired magazine, in general? I only read it occasionally.
Not every article, just the overall tone of the magazine.
In just about any issue you can find several articles that fall into that catagory. |
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| sski |
| Hybrids are still too expensive. I did the math before using a Civic. I commute about 25,000mi a year and I think I would have keep the car something like 20yrs to break even. |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by sski
Hybrids are still too expensive. I did the math before using a Civic. I commute about 25,000mi a year and I think I would have keep the car something like 20yrs to break even.
Did you include the 3 sets of batteries you would be on by then?:eek:
You might not break even till 25 years! :4:
Of course by then the Greenies will have instituted a "Battery Disposal Fee" on these batteries like batteries and tires today, and that will push the break even point out to, Oh about NEVER! :3: |
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| GreenMachine |
quote:
Originally posted by N_Jay
Also using the Civic Hybrid as a model you WILL NOT get the same performance, or maintenance costs. :3:
True. But what about the new hybrid Highlander? Supposed to be 270hp with the hybrid setup along with better mileage. No idea about maintenance though. |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by GreenMachine
True. But what about the new hybrid Highlander? Supposed to be 270hp with the hybrid setup along with better mileage. No idea about maintenance though.
What is the quoted MPG?
Would love to see the HP curve, which will be different in each gear with an electric assist |
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| GreenMachine |
quote:
What Edmunds.com Says: Economical hybrid power combined with Highlander utility should make this another hit for Toyota.
Already known for its carlike drivability and all-around usefulness, the Highlander will soon add a fuel-sipping hybrid drivetrain to its impressive list of available features. Similar in design to the system used in the Prius sedan, the Highlander's Hybrid Synergy Drive power plant was specifically designed to handle the added weight of an SUV. It combines Toyota's 3.3-liter V6 gas engine with an electric motor that boasts twice the power of the unit used in the Prius. Working together, the two engines produce a combined 270 horsepower, enough to push this Highlander to 60 miles per hour in less than 8 seconds according to Toyota. Not only that, it's also projected to get over 28 miles to the gallon in combined city and highway driving and have a range of over 600 miles. Sales are expected to begin early next year.
I was only mentioning what has been posted already. Don't know of any exact figures, but with a projected mpg rating of 28 combined, that puts in the 30's for HWY mileage with its current 19.1 gallon tank and the est'd 600 mile range. :eek: No mention if that's 2WD or AWD mileage though. |
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| krygny |
GreenMachine, This is all purely hypothetical. I've heard nothing substantive about a hybrid Pilot.
I'm no tree hugger, but there are other practical benefits to a hybrid vehicle. I'd pay a premium for a Pilot that gets 30-35 mpg. Saves money and allows me to go longer without gassing up.
The "common good" reasons for being green are nice, but there has to be reward for the induhvidual. I don't care for folks who try to impose their lifestyle on others. Just because someone doesn't want to smoke, own an SUV, or a gun, doesn't make them righteous enough to deny those things to someone else. If we all sacrificed our personal preferences for the common good, we wouldn't be human; we'd be Vulcans. Or bees.
So, I'll repeat my initial assumption that the vehicle's performance, reliability, maintenance costs, and life cycle are comparable. The whole deal is broken if the system is problematic or if I have to spend $800 on a new bank of batteries every 3-4 years. |
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| CNYGuy |
| I'd buy a hybrid Pilot if it was economically worthwhile without sacrificing performance. Tree hugger benefits alone aren't enough, I need to see same reliability and power with less cost. I don't think any of the hybrids do that well yet. |
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| Qbrozen |
I've read that the batteries will last just as long as the drivetrain. The rumor that they need to be replaced is just that, a rumor. Anyone care to comment or have any solid sources that this is true or false?
Wish I could remember where the heck I read my info. I think it was an editorial autoweek. but I could be wrong.
And as far as "less cost." I don't care, personally. If it cost exactly the same between the 2 vehicles, I'd opt for the hybrid just because you still gain the advantage of having to stop for gas less often. Heck, I'd even pay a few bucks over the life of the vehicle EXTRA for that pleasure. |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by Qbrozen
I've read that the batteries will last just as long as the drivetrain. The rumor that they need to be replaced is just that, a rumor. Anyone care to comment or have any solid sources that this is true or false?
I have been using the 8 year 80,000 mile warranty as my basis.
It makes sense from my experiance with battery power systems.
We realy won't know till the Hybrids start aging.
quote:
Originally posted by Qbrozen
And as far as "less cost." I don't care, personally. If it cost exactly the same between the 2 vehicles, I'd opt for the hybrid just because you still gain the advantage of having to stop for gas less often. Heck, I'd even pay a few bucks over the life of the vehicle EXTRA for that pleasure.
This is the main issue. For th eforseeable future it will not cost less, it will cost MORE, so all discussion based on the assumption of a cost savings in either purchase or operating costs are irrelevent.
If range is what you want, then there are companies that can fit aux fuel tanks to many vehicles. I am sure that "over the life of the vehicle" it would not add much more than "a few bucks".
Not many people go that route! (I am guessing you have not) |
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| Qbrozen |
why do you say it will cost more?
you just said yourself we'll have to wait and see on the battery issue. So what else is costing more on the vehicle?
Yes, of course it costs more to buy, but it is assumed that is offset by what you save in gas.
I'm not sure why that one person thought he wouldn't break even for such a long time. Can you elaborate?
The hybrid Civic gets 14 miles more per gallon than the equivalent Civic EX (both manual trannies). I also drive about 25K miles a year. That's about 694 gallons in the EX and 500 gallons in the Hybrid. At $1.60 a gallon (supposed to be way beyond that price soon), that's $310 a year in savings. The car costs $2100 more to buy. So its less than 7 years to break even.
Oh, and let's not forget the tax deduction you get to take on it the first year. I believe its $2K, is it not? Basically, you get to deduct the added cost of the hybrid system over the standard. |
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| GreenMachine |
quote:
Originally posted by krygny
GreenMachine, This is all purely hypothetical. I've heard nothing substantive about a hybrid Pilot.
What are you talking about? :confused: I was talking about the hybrid Highlander. No where did I say anything about a hybrid PILOT. My reply was to show that not all hybrids have better performance at the expense of gas mileage.
As N_Jay said, the battery warranty is 8yrs/80K miles. Also, I read somewhere that the batteries are more like $2K, not $800.
This articles says $3K for the Civic :eek: USnews
This one says about $1,200 for the Insight Insight Central
In 8 years they might cost $800, who knows :8: |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by Qbrozen
why do you say it will cost more?
you just said yourself we'll have to wait and see on the battery issue. So what else is costing more on the vehicle?
Yes, of course it costs more to buy, but it is assumed that is offset by what you save in gas.
I'm not sure why that one person thought he wouldn't break even for such a long time. Can you elaborate?
It has to cost more to buy because there are more systems and more equipment in the vehicle.
Battery maintenance has to be a factor, we dont know what it will be, but it will be something.
I have no idea how he did his calculations, but I would agree in general that today's hybrids should not be purchased with a payback in mind.
quote:
Originally posted by Qbrozen
The hybrid Civic gets 14 miles more per gallon than the equivalent Civic EX (both manual trannies). I also drive about 25K miles a year. That's about 694 gallons in the EX and 500 gallons in the Hybrid. At $1.60 a gallon (supposed to be way beyond that price soon), that's $310 a year in savings. The car costs $2100 more to buy. So its less than 7 years to break even.
You may save $2100 over 7 years, but at 25K miles an year that is 175,000 miles and you may be on starting your third set of batteries.
Lets say they last 80,000 miles and cost $800, That is 1 cent per mile. At 35 miles per gallon, that is a $0.35 cost per gallon. you have to add to the operating costs.
Back to the fact that you may have reasons to buy one, but economic savings should not be high on the list of factors.
quote:
Originally posted by Qbrozen
Oh, and let's not forget the tax deduction you get to take on it the first year. I believe its $2K, is it not? Basically, you get to deduct the added cost of the hybrid system over the standard.
I won't, but a $2000 tax deduction for most people works out to about $666 in your pocket. |
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| tracy |
quote:
Originally posted by N_Jay
I have been using the 8 year 80,000 mile warranty as my basis.
It makes sense from my experiance with battery power systems.
I know nothing about battery power systems. But if the warranty is 80K, I wouldn't expect it to only last 80K. After all, I expect my Honda to last more than 36K. Or am I drawing the wrong analogy? |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by tracy
I know nothing about battery power systems. But if the warranty is 80K, I wouldn't expect it to only last 80K. After all, I expect my Honda to last more than 36K. Or am I drawing the wrong analogy?
Battery warranties are often closly associated with the expected life.
Look at a typical car battety today. They have a 3 to 5 year warranty, and most would agree that you are living on borrowed time much past those numbers.
A battery is a much simpler device than a whole car with much less variability concerning failure modes.
Commercial battery systems are very common in computer, and communications systems installations.
These batteries have an expected life or 5 to 15 years depending on the technology and the maintenance.
Battey use in trasportation is not limited to Hybrids, and therefore some data already exists.
http://www.chevrontexaco.com/techno...churelayout.pdf |
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| jay |
quote:
Originally posted by N_Jay
Battery warranties are often closly associated with the expected life.
I bought a Toyota Tercel on February 14, 1989. The battery was warranted for 36 months, and died February 13, 1992, about 18 hours short of a full 36 months from the time I took delivery and drove off the lot.:p |
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| tracy |
quote:
Originally posted by jay
I bought a Toyota Tercel on February 14, 1989. The battery was warranted for 36 months, and died February 13, 1992, about 18 hours short of a full 36 months from the time I took delivery and drove off the lot.:p
Did you get a refund? :D |
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| Jet-Pilot-64 |
quote:
Originally posted by tracy
Did you get a refund? :D
:21: :21: :21: |
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| Qbrozen |
We're talking about replacing the batteries and the maintenance of the batteries as if they are facts. Show me these facts. I really am curious because I would seriously consider a hybrid. So far, everyone here is guessing as to the costs. Nobody has presented hard information. I think that would help quite a bit.
And I agree that the batteries should last longer. You say that manufacturers give a warranty for the expected life, but that can be said of anything. So, again, why only a 36K mile warranty on the rest of the vehicle. It just doesn't add up.
n-jay - I won't, but a $2000 tax deduction for most people works out to about $666 in your pocket.
actually, i think its less than that for most people. I could be wrong. But, in any case, $400-$600 is still $400-$600. Helps in knocking down that initial cost gap. It means that, assuming all else is equal since we have no evidence otherwise, the break-even point is now down to about 5 years in my case. |
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| bcclements |
I am also considering a hybrid vehicle in the near future.
Unfortunately, nobody has discussed how much energy is used to manufacture the batteries. Or how much pollution they cause to recycle or dispose of. Are we really saving here?
What are some of the other maintenance issues? How long do the electric motors last? It would be interesting to read the service guide for a hybrid vehicle.
The president of GM recently stated that they are not interested in producing a hybrid vehicle. I wonder why?
This is a great issue to debate. |
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| sski |
I was asked to explain the long period to recover savings on a hybrid so here it is:
Regular Civic cost (incl. MSRP, frt, tax) = $19,676 CDN
Hybrid Civic (incl. MSRP, frt, tax) = $33936 CDN
Difference = $14260 CDN
Regular Civic fuel consumption = 5.7L/100km
Hybrid Civic fuel consumption = 4.6L/100km
Based on fuel at .70 per litre and 40,000 km travelled annually annual fuel cost is:
Civic = $1596 CDN, Hybrid = $1288 CDN
Difference = $308 CDN
Actually, in order to recover the inital $14260 extra cost at rate of $308 per year I would have to drive 46.30 yrs.
Please tell me if my numbers are wrong.
Are you sure the cost difference in the U.S. is only $2100.00 |
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| Stevie B |
| In keeping with the thread title, I wouldn't pay a damn cent for a hybrid Pilot, let alone any hybrid vehicle. The concept is admirable, but I'll take a 100% gas guzzlin' car. Thanks for asking! |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by Qbrozen
We're talking about replacing the batteries and the maintenance of the batteries as if they are facts. Show me these facts. I really am curious because I would seriously consider a hybrid. So far, everyone here is guessing as to the costs. Nobody has presented hard information. I think that would help quite a bit.
And I agree that the batteries should last longer. You say that manufacturers give a warranty for the expected life, but that can be said of anything. So, again, why only a 36K mile warranty on the rest of the vehicle. It just doesn't add up.
n-jay - I won't, but a $2000 tax deduction for most people works out to about $666 in your pocket.
actually, i think its less than that for most people. I could be wrong. But, in any case, $400-$600 is still $400-$600. Helps in knocking down that initial cost gap. It means that, assuming all else is equal since we have no evidence otherwise, the break-even point is now down to about 5 years in my case.
The FACTS are that Nickle Metal Hydride (NiMH) batteries are not new technology. They have been around a good while and can be designed to be maintained or maintenance free.
From all accounts the Honda packs are maintenance free.
Maintenance free NiMH cells typically last about 1000 cycles if used carefully. Batteries last less since any cell failure is a bad battery.
You can get longer life span by over designing th pack so it is never drained beyond 60% or 70%. This sis good for life, but you are buying and carrying about 33% more battery than you need.
(Aren't engineering compromises fun)!
The battery Warranty is quite a bit different from a vehicle warranty, since it is basically one very homogeneous system.
The car is made up of many systems each that wear and/or age at different rates.
The battery warranty was put in place to give the consumer a level of confidence in the system (as reported by the press). If this is the case, why not a 100,000 mile warranty? I would guess (as a prior Product Manager) that the anticipated warranty costs were too high.
The one bad assumption that people keep making is "If all else is equal". We KNOW (Assumed fact based on existing Civic Hybrid, the closest real world model) that all else will not be equal! :4:
Some people expect the battery technology to radically improve or the costs to come down quickly. Unfourtunatly, this technology is not new and is not on a sharp evolution path. We are dealing with basic chemistry which has been well understood for many decades. It is not like a silicon based product that has maintained a steep price decline curve, nor is it a new technology where rapid advances should be expected. |
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| Qbrozen |
n-jay - sorry, but I'm not getting anything out of that post that proves the batteries need replacing at 80K miles. Don't get me wrong, I respect your opinion and everything, but I'm looking for hard facts one way or the other.
And, aside from the initial price and gas consumption, what is not equal between the Civic Hybrid and Civic EX?
And, actually, if you compare the evolutionary path of the batteries in these systems to many other forms of technology, it has progressed at a respectable rate. Look at a motorcar in 1903 compared to a motorcar today. It took 100 years to get to this point and we're still using the same basic internal combustion engine. Its just more powerful and more efficient.
sski - what models are you comparing? Here in the states, the Civic EX and Hybrid are equipped exactly the same aside from the drivetrain. The difference between these 2 models is $2100.
But, if you only want the equipment level of an LX, then the Hybrid is much more because they don't offer it with less equipment. |
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| bcclements |
quote:
Originally posted by Qbrozen
where did you hear that?
GM's site would lead me to a different conclusion:
http://www.gm.com/company/gmability...ch/300_hybrids/
In reference to GM...
I watched an interview on CNBC during the recent Detroit Auto Show. The question was basically where's your hybrid since Toyota and Honda have one.
The GM executive said something like don't except one in the near furure.
Perhaps they are working on one as your link suggests, just don't hold your breath. |
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| Qbrozen |
it seems that sometimes (or many times) the right hand of these large companies don't know what the left hand is doing. So, who knows. I guess only time will tell.
And trust me, I'm not holding my breath for ANY GM product. LOL |
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| sski |
I was using the base Civic with a 5 spd. To be fair using a top of the line Civic Si (same as EX in the U.S) the cost difference is still $7000.00. In this case the time to recover your cost is still approx. 19-20 years.
I checked the Honda USA site and the difference really is about $2100.00.
The problem is that the Civic Hybrid is way more expensive here. After converting your price into CDN dollars we still pay an extra 5000.00. (ie/ the $2000 difference you quoted plus the extra $5000 we seem to pay = $7000) The price on regular Civics seems to be comparable between U.S. and CDN dollars.
I wonder if there is more demand in the US (California). I can't image anyone would buy a Hybrid in Canada based on the $$$. |
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| jay |
quote:
Originally posted by sski
I was using the base Civic with a 5 spd. To be fair using a top of the line Civic Si (same as EX in the U.S) the cost difference is still $7000.00. In this case the time to recover your cost is still approx. 19-20 years.
I checked the Honda USA site and the difference really is about $2100.00.
The problem is that the Civic Hybrid is way more expensive here. After converting your price into CDN dollars we still pay an extra 5000.00. (ie/ the $2000 difference you quoted plus the extra $5000 we seem to pay = $7000) The price on regular Civics seems to be comparable between U.S. and CDN dollars.
I wonder if there is more demand in the US (California). I can't image anyone would buy a Hybrid in Canada based on the $$$.
People buy hybrids here so they can use the HOV commuter lanes without having to have at least two (sometimes three) people in the vehicle. I see a lot of hybrids every day zipping along in HOV lanes with only the driver in them. |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by bcclements
In reference to GM...
I watched an interview on CNBC during the recent Detroit Auto Show. The question was basically where's your hybrid since Toyota and Honda have one.
The GM executive said something like don't except one in the near furure.
Perhaps they are working on one as your link suggests, just don't hold your breath.
It could be they are WAY behind because they followed the US gov ($$) who where following the greenies down the foolish road to the electric car! :2: :2: :2: |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by Qbrozen
n-jay - sorry, but I'm not getting anything out of that post that proves the batteries need replacing at 80K miles. Don't get me wrong, I respect your opinion and everything, but I'm looking for hard facts one way or the other.
And, aside from the initial price and gas consumption, what is not equal between the Civic Hybrid and Civic EX?
And, actually, if you compare the evolutionary path of the batteries in these systems to many other forms of technology, it has progressed at a respectable rate. Look at a motorcar in 1903 compared to a motorcar today. It took 100 years to get to this point and we're still using the same basic internal combustion engine. Its just more powerful and more efficient.
sski - what models are you comparing? Here in the states, the Civic EX and Hybrid are equipped exactly the same aside from the drivetrain. The difference between these 2 models is $2100.
But, if you only want the equipment level of an LX, then the Hybrid is much more because they don't offer it with less equipment.
As I said, I am guessing the 8 year/80 K mile life, but it is an educated guess. (I have designed large battery power systems for communications equipment, and have been through "Warranty Discussion Hell" as a product manager).
If I rember correctly, the Civic Hybrid does not offer the same performance level as the Civic, has less cargo capacity, and less weight capacity.
I beleive that some of the cost of each Civic Hybrid is payed for from goverment subsities of some type (or the reduction of other regulation related costs like the cost to meet CAFE) That would account for the difference between teh US and Canadian markets. |
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| CNYGuy |
quote:
Originally posted by jay
People buy hybrids here so they can use the HOV commuter lanes without having to have at least two (sometimes three) people in the vehicle. I see a lot of hybrids every day zipping along in HOV lanes with only the driver in them.
Wish we had nice roads with HOV lanes. Come to think of it, just having nice roads would be OK too.:roadtrip: |
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| jay |
quote:
Originally posted by CNYGuy
Wish we had nice roads with HOV lanes. Come to think of it, just having nice roads would be OK too.:roadtrip:
Wish we had nice roads without them. HOV lanes cause more congestion than they prevent, and the roads in this area have really deteriorated in the last few years.:( |
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| elduderino |
| The reported gas mileage improvement on the RX400h is only 6 mpg better than the RX330. But, the reported HP and torque output is impressively higher; almost near where a V8 would produce. Hard to imagine that an electric motor can put out that type of muscle. |
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| N_Jay |
quote:
Originally posted by elduderino
The reported gas mileage improvement on the RX400h is only 6 mpg better than the RX330. But, the reported HP and torque output is impressively higher; almost near where a V8 would produce. Hard to imagine that an electric motor can put out that type of muscle.
Torque is what electric motors are good at!
Typically over the operating range a gas engine puts out even torque with HP building with speed.
Typically an electric motor puts out a fixed amount of HP with torque dropping off as speed increases. |
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| camanopilot |
Any and all reduction of our (USA) dependancy on fossil fuel is a positive. Think about the number of barrels of oil we would need if ALL vehicles got only 5 MPG better. The number is staggering!
IMO - it's a small price to pay |
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| swirl |
I would have bought a hybrid pilot no questions asked! I think all the complainers our clueless and missed one thing about the car costing $2000- $2500 more then my gas eating Pilot now.
If you have any clue about taxes you get a $2000 tax credit on your income tax for owning a hybrid car. So lets do the math all over again, and post new numbers.
Plus $2000 for hybrid!
Minus $2000 tax credit.
LOOK break even and save on gas.
I can tell you one thing the American companies are in bed with the oil companies.
Any company not working on clean fuel cars is clueless.
Example:
1) Everyone here owns a Honda! Honda is working on hybrids at this time.
2) American companies are going to be left in the dark in 3-5 years when Honda and Toyota have record sales.
3) GM had a hybrid a few years ago, it was called a Saturn and they caned it. They made up some lame excuse that they had no sales. Funny thing was Saturn dealership had over 2000 deposits for cars they could not deliver. I wonder if the CEO ‘s got any bonuses under the table that year. |
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| GreenMachine |
quote:
Originally posted by swirl
If you have any clue about taxes you get a $2000 tax credit on your income tax for owning a hybrid car.
Thought it was a tax deduction, not a credit. But hey, it's still better than nothing. ;) |
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| Birdman |
My wife has a Civic Hybrid that we both really really like. It's a great car, with excellent acceleration, braking, and handling. She bought it used off Ebay so we checked on warranty information carefully before the purchase. There is almost no real world information about how long the NiMH battery will last, since the Civic Hybrid has not been out long enough to know. The service department at the dealer told me that the battery was less than $1900 installed and the manager fully expected it to last at least the 8/80,000 of its warranty. I have a 10 mile city commute and when I've been allowed to drive it, I've recorded 60+ mpg. On the highway the mileage is less because the gas engine does all the work. On 2 extended interstate trips I've recorded 43 mpg. Both of those are excellent and allows me to laugh at the gas stations on my way by :) The car will work fine even if the main battery dies, it just won't accelerate as well or get as good a gas mileage.
I also like clean air a lot. The emissions of the Civic Hybrid are extremely low.
For those of you that want a factual, reasoned discussion of the economic and environmental merits of hybrid vs. other technology, the latest issue (May 2004) of Scientific American covers the basics. Hybrids hold up well in the comparisons.
If a hybrid Pilot were available, I would definitely get one. The Civic has made a believer out of me. |
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| pilot_chip |
also I heard from a co-worker that if ever a hybrid is in a bad
accident and the jaws of life has to be used , they have to be careful about where they cut so that someone does not get
electrocuted.
if everything from costs/maintenance to performance were
guaranteed , I would definitely get it ( for my son's and his children's future ) ....
www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?d...97&refid=ink_d1 |
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